2006-04-14 17:13:11

LOL ... talk about off topic ..

I don't care who thinks what, because my PSX is better than the 360 so there ...

Ya know you should stop worrying about what Magazines and reviewers say and make your own damn minds up for yourselves...

If FF7 wasn't the best Final Fantasy why does it continuously get brought up..

FF7 is the most famous and probably because it is considered to be the best , does that not make sense?

2006-04-14 17:24:57

Well,everyone has their right to their opinion,if you doesnt like ff7,you have the right to do so it doesnt suit everyone,nor does starcraft/half lif2 etc,however ,i doesnt think some american sites are the ones to only listen to and then ignoring what the european/japanese sites thinks...
That is just ignorant.

And yes FF7 is getting remakes and movies cause its the most popular by the FF fans,and it sold most in the FF serie.

2006-04-14 17:50:53

You said FFX was not a AAA title. You have yet to prove that.While this may seem crazy to you, but a review of an RPG by a non-RPG fan for non-RPG consumers can be useful. Only letting fans of a genre review a game would be misleading to the public. I never indicated these surveys are perfect, but the same issues apply across the board (Halo 2 and HL2 both have some ~60% reviews). But this also reflects the fact some people just do not like a game.Ahhh the obligitory flame. Either agree with me and don't challenge me, or you are an idiot.What does that have to do with the fact DOZENS of critics thought FFX was better than FF7? By this sort of measure, if I found *1* error in something you said I could totally dismiss you opinion. Since you disagree with a couple reviews it invalidates their opinion?

Btw, the games you mention were all very, very good at the time of release and shone on their platform. It is not unthinkable among a survey of 100 people that some would really, really like them.

What does this have to do with FFX not being a AAA title?Of course I never said that and that is not much logic (I never indicated anything of the sort, let alone said so), but like the name calling this seems to be where you want to drag the discussion.

Anyhow, so how again is FFX not a AAA title?

---
I am too poor to own a 360... therefor I play with paper statistics. The results of my indepth scientific anaylisis determined the most important benchmark is Pi. As in The Ring of Light.

2006-04-14 18:11:12 In reply to Jollipop (2006-04-14 17:13:11)

The PSX was one of the most expensive and poorly implimented (and selling!) consoles of all time. The Playstation on the other hand ;)No one said individuals cannot have an opinion. The question is the broad, subjective statements about certain titles (BiA, FF10) not being AAA quality. THIS requires a much more OBJECTIVE criteria.It seems to be brought up by the rabid FF7 fans who disagree with the majority position that other FF's are better!Is it? Empiracle evidence?

All I see is FF7's fans dissing on other games -- even other FFs games -- to defend their game of choice.

I never denied that FF7 is a great game -- or that some fans and press think it is the best FF, even the best game, ever -- but the question reolves around is FFX a AAA title, and is FF7 considered the best FF game?

On the first point, yes, FFX is is universally considered AAA quality. FF7 who say otherwise obviously have other motives. They are allowing their personal preference totally discredit the evidence illogically.

On the second point, without invalidating yours or Quez's opinion, the fact is a VERY large number of people -- even a majority -- consider FFX better than FF7.

I am not challenging someones opinion (like I said, I disagree with a number of the top10 from ANY reviewer), but it is more than noteworthy when a game is considered "better" on average by dozens of people. This does not mean they are right, but what it does do is establish the counter position in favor of FF7 is not the consensus as often presented.


To change perspectives, some people absolutely LOVED Zelda 2 (side scroller). They believed it owned Zelda 1. It is fair to say, "IMO Zelda 2 is much better than Zelda 1".

But it would be completely inaccurate to say, "Zelda 1 was NOT a AAA title".I think it is the "rage against the machine" older games are better, must discredit the majority opinion, vocal minitory ;)

Well not really, but I do begin to wonder when people start trashing GOOD games to defend their position. I think FF7 is one of those all time great games, a classic. And since RPGs are story based it has a propensity to win people over in a way Mario could not. Mario Revolution could blow Mario 64 away. But regardless of how great FFXV is, there will ALWAYS be people who think FF7 is better based on the story. But the question remains should such opinions, as strong as they may be, be isolated as truisms or should be broaden our perspective with a more objective survey?

As an outsider, it seems more of an internal struggle when FF fans can slam FFX to "validate" their own opinion, when obviously this is not the majority position. Most gamers love both... so it makes you go "hmmm".

---
I am too poor to own a 360... therefor I play with paper statistics. The results of my indepth scientific anaylisis determined the most important benchmark is Pi. As in The Ring of Light.

2006-04-14 18:17:00 In reply to QuezcatoL (2006-04-14 17:24:57)

While I already responded to this fallacious stance, you are ignoring that FFX's results have the same issues. It is not like FFX has a ton of Euro/Japanese reviews being surveyed and FF7 very few. The issue is one of resources, not discimination.No one, less you, suggested ignoring other review sites. And no one is denying the posibility of consumers or reviewers thinking FF7 is the best FF every, best RPG ever, or even best game ever. The point that this position -- presented at the expense of another game -- is NOT universal. Even you have to conceed this is NOT the opinion in American where FF7 and FFX are both well received.

But all this is to side step your comments that FFX, a critical success and a consumer success (nearly 8M units sold), is not a AAA title.

---
I am too poor to own a 360... therefor I play with paper statistics. The results of my indepth scientific anaylisis determined the most important benchmark is Pi. As in The Ring of Light.

2006-04-14 18:26:11

Well as a huge JRPG fan i think FFX was one of the most disappointing so far (FFX-2 getting the crown for that), it had nice graphics for it's time and the character design was nice, but the story was a bit crap.

The thing is unless you are a fan of the series you probably haven't played many of them and that doesn't give that person the right to say which is best, because they don't have any clue.

FF7 remains my favourite in the series because of its story line and that is about all you can judge it on considering gameplay and graphics have advanced since.

do i ever provide evidence ?? :P...

My evidence would be that FF7 has spawned 2 spin off's a film and a possible remake of the original so that alone must say something for it?

2006-04-14 18:45:20

You said famitsu was worthless thus you doesnt suggest listening to japans biggest magazine?
By being the biggest magazine japanes gamers buy it cause they agree with their reviews and opinions,you on the othr hand said the magazine was worthless.
And then saying you never indicate not to listening japanese magazines...
Even though famitsu is way way way bigger then anything close in japan.
Now your saying against yourself.

About FF10 scoring better at "GAMERANKINGS.COm" which let NFL become the 10th best rankned games,cause they just take some american sites,which doesnt indicate a shit which i can say cause you doesnt think famitsu has something to say... :P


here is some reviews of FF7.
the first off the list.

IGN 9/3/1997 9.5 out of 10 95.0%
GameSpot 9/29/1997 9.5 out of 10 95.0%
Official Playstation Magazine 3/20/1999 5 out of 5 100.0%
Electronic Gaming Monthly 6/24/2003 9.5 out of 10 95.0%
GMR Magazine 1/7/2003 9 out of 10 90.0%
PSX Extreme -- 10 out of 10 100.0%
Game Revolution 5/21/2002 B+ 85.0%
Games are Fun 7/15/2005 10 out of 10 100.0%
Just RPG 12/30/2002 95 out of 100 95.0%
All RPG 7/13/2002 9.5 out of 10 95.0%


Now here is the first of FF10


Gamespy 12/15/2001 4 out of 5 80.0%
IGN 12/15/2001 9.5 out of 10 95.0%
GameSpot 12/14/2001 9.3 out of 10 93.0%
Games Domain 5/14/2002 4 out of 5 80.0%
Game Informer 1/1/2002 9.75 out of 10 97.5%
GamePro 12/15/2001 5 out of 5 100.0%
GMR Magazine 1/7/2003 9 out of 10 90.0%
PSM Magazine -- 10 out of 10 100.0%
Electronic Gaming Monthly -- 9.33 out of 10 93.3%
Official Playstation Magazine -- 5 out of 5 100.0%


What we doesnt see here is that...

FF10 had 73 reviews while FF7 30.

For ex we have up to 17 ps2 magazines/sites thats more then half of the reviews FF7
WOuld be a diffrent story today seeing how ff7 was one of the reason along with dq to why psx succed and got all their magazines/sites.

And then on the ff10 we doesnt have a stupid review that gives a game 6/10-...
saying he doesnt even like rpg.

But ofc


Yourself saying that "that kind of review" can be useful,well i think famitsu the most respect japanese gaming magazine is 1000 times better to have then that site,ofc you trashted famitsu saying it was worthless.

But its your opinion.

Would FF7 scored better if they did include european gaming sites or japanese?
yes,but ofc FF10 would also have scored better (atleast in famitsu),since FF10 is very big in Japan also.

FF8 sold 8 million units,its one of the most hated FF game ever by the fans and have a ratio at 88%...

So whats your point?
FF8 sold cause it was the sequal to Final Fantasy 7,it ride of its succes.
You gonna think every FF game that come along is a huge success cause its sells some millions?

Its a serie that sells by its name,why did you think square took the name Final Fantasy on their Mmorpg? cause it was way to sell of th game,no matter what quality.
Also,if FF7 wasn't the biggest among the FF fans,why did it get a cgi movie or mobile phone games,and why does the creators themself said the only game they want to remake is FF7.
yes kitase and nomura has said that,not FF10.

And im glad Sakaguchi FF creator left Square-enix after FF10,it was the 2nd game he wasn't a part off since ff8,you run in a road all along,no airship you control and no worldmap to travel within.
And the characters dialog was just awesome...lets go party...!!! yay!!! :P

Good thing sakaguchi left square-enix.



Also about a great story,Lotr was written ovr 50 years ago,does that mean its gonna be crap in 5-6 years?
that is the logic you seem to be using.


Anyway, here is my last points,Dont use gamerankings as some holy bible,cause its not,they doesnt include the biggest european magazines nor the japanese.
Instead see it as how the america media looked on some games,or mayby you think their NFL game is the 10 th best game ever made.?! :)

Lol...

2006-04-14 19:01:29 In reply to Jollipop (2006-04-14 18:26:11)

Yes,Im one of those fans who played FF4,FF5,FF6,FF7,FF8,FF9 and FF10.

The newer fans,always say the latest entry is the best :P
Except FF9,which some of the new gamers from ff7 and ff8 trashted,cause they thought ff serie should be as previous,and no they cant have played the earliest games,when it was about crystalls and magic. :)

However FF8 is a love/hate game,most FF fans hate it though,when i say FF fans i mean the people who been in the serie.
The battle system with junction was just dumb,and making monster becoming your level was also stupid,not more powerlevling,als GF abuse made every FF fan scream.


Why i dislike FF10 is the way of the characters comments and look,they really feelt like,lets add in some people who look like super models and then let them run in a straight road,and then make some plot twiest in there and,btw ship airships and worldmap thats old,this is all about being fresh and new!!!

yay!!!

but seriously the road running in FFX really pissed me off,i never cared for the world,nor its people,nor for the characters who feelt extremeley ridicoulus.

I would however score FF8 94/100 and FF10 91/100
No of those are bad rpg's its just that as a FF fan who followed the FF serie i know they could have done so much better.


FF9 is pretty intresting title,it also had some love/hate,but thats because the new fans from ff7 and ff8 was expecting a game like that,and was clueless when they saw ff9,wtf is this?!

Magic and crystall? medival times?
Meeeeh!!!

;)
ofc we fans who made the serie into what it became,liked it,however it had many flaws also,but yeah i consider ff9 better game then FF8.and FF10 ofc.

2006-04-14 19:09:25

Btw iwas on gamerankings.com

FF9 is the best scoring FF game if you consider the 90% rating,does that mean its the best FF game?
No,gamerankings.com is stupid.

AND BTW READ THIS...

Remebr that guy who gaved FF7 6/10 and FF9 6/10?

Well his revwiw of ff6 was this...

"The story is a familiar one; Zidane Tribal, a young skilled thief, has joined forces with a wizard, a knight and a princess to save the world from a plot constructed by the Queen and a sinister sorcerer, Kuja, who are on a mission to secure global domination. Blah blah blah blah. The FF series never ends, obviously, and fans will always be fans regardless of the number of derivative discs. The rest of us will wait for the movie version Final Fantasy, which is due out this summer."

OBS THE BLA BLA BLA...what a idiot.
And remeber how he said he doesnt even like rpgs,well look at his score of FF10

9/10

HAHAHA :P

There you have it, a guy who says he doesnt like rpgs,and trashed FF7 and FF9 gaved FF10 9/10 and got his review uploaded as a real trusty one at gamernakings.com

ALL HAIL GAMERANKINGS.com

When i thought it couldnt be more dumber then it is,it showed itself once again.
The people who hate FF serie even salute FF10 :P lol?


bye!

2006-04-14 19:33:36

Found this...
Great, cause in my top 5 is FF7+CT+Z64.


GameFAQs held a contest for its 10th anniversary ending on November 5, 2005 in which users chose their 10 favorite games and guessed what the overall top 10 games would be. The overall top 100 list, as chosen by the overall userbase of GameFAQs, was revealed at the conclusion of the contest. [12] The top ten were:

Final Fantasy VII
The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time
Chrono Trigger
The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past
Super Mario Bros. 3
Super Smash Bros. Melee
Goldeneye 007
Metal Gear Solid
Halo: Combat Evolved
Final Fantasy VI (Final Fantasy III in North America)

2006-04-14 20:08:30 In reply to Jollipop (2006-04-14 18:26:11)

You are the minority as pointed out. Not that that is a bad thing, and you have a right to the opinion. I understand why people think HL2 was a dissappointment, even if I don't agree. But in the broader scope of general consensus we can look at things a bit more objectively.

Your observation is subjective. I have no problem with YOUR opinion. I am asking that YOU look outside your own preferences.Quite the reverse.

A number of FF fans have said FF7 is overrated.

It is the FF7 *fans* who are adament other peoples opinions are clueless.

As a fan of FF7 you are obviously biased toward it -- so much so you are now taking the stance that FFX was a dissappointment with a crap story. That is your opinion. What I am asking is for a BROADER criteria of how was evaluate these things. e.g.

IMO, lets say for my tastes HL2/CS:S is the best game of the last 5 years. And for arguments sake kets say I also think it was better than HL1.

Now if I say, "HL1 was crap" and "HL1 was not a AAA title" in the context of the above -- should I not be challenged?

The issue is

Opinion

vs.

Facts

I am not disagreeing with your personal opinion; I am more challenging the facts... like:

FFX is not a AAA title.

But as I can see, any points brought forward that FF7 may not be the best FF game (something it appears to be widely believed among gamers) gets you FF7 die hards all up in arms ;)Stories are subjective. I am not disagreeing with your appreciation of the story... my point is that while you LOVED the story, there are others who think it is overrated and a lot who actually preferred FFX.[/quote]

That says it is popular and a good game -- neither of which I disagree with! Like I said before, some even consider it the best ever! RPG or otherwise. I also have demonstrated FF7 is frequently considered in the TOP 2 of FF games ALL TIME.

I think you both are continueing to misunderstand me. I know Quez is more of a personal attack/inability to read.

Hopefully you can understand my point. I am not denying FF7 is a great game, one of the best ever, etc. I am just pointing out the FFX hate -- from FF7 fans -- is very out of place in the big picture. You may dislike FFX (Quez does not even consider it a AAA title).

I have not challenged your opinion.

What I am challenging is facts. And the fact is FFX is a AAA title. FFX is also, in general and on average, considered to be on par with FF7.

Like I said, I did not like Metroid Prime much for various reasons. That does not prevent me from appreciating it in the context of the market, its quality, and what it means to gamers.

I am just prodding FF7 fans to put aside their own opinion for the big picture.

Alas, asking gamers to judge a game outside their OWN bias is very difficult.

Btw, for the record, I have played FF7. Never finished it, but I have played it. Darn good game. Of course GoldenEye prevented me from fully appreciating it ;)

---
I am too poor to own a 360... therefor I play with paper statistics. The results of my indepth scientific anaylisis determined the most important benchmark is Pi. As in The Ring of Light.

2006-04-14 20:23:53 In reply to QuezcatoL (2006-04-14 18:45:20)

Straw men everywhere!

What I said was true. Famitsu is not generally relied upon for review accuracy due to certain quarks in Japanese culture. I did NOT say it is to be totally disregarded -- only that Famitsu should not be viewed as overriding dozens of other reviewers opinions. They should get one voice, like anyone else.By such quizical statements I must assume you are in dire need of this book. If you would actually engage the points -- and explain how FFX was not a AAA title outside your personal hate for the game -- and stop making up things I didn't say we could have a conversation.As hard as it may be for some of you guys to believe:

1) Sports are one of the biggest genres
2) Football is the biggest selling sports game every year
3) Sports games rely heavily on gameplay mechanics, features, and longevity and have a lot of replay
4) Resonate well with fans

You continue to attack one of the BEST games ever. When NFL 2K series was launched it was universally praised. It added a ton of depth and gameplay to an already thriving genre.

Contemperously, that NFL game was absolutely awesome. The fact you keep slamming Americans and the American press and a game sub-genre (Sports-Football) that sells over 6M units a year is confusing.

If a Soccer game was revolutionary and played great and was praised by the press -- does the fact European and Japanese press outlets praising it negate that it is a good game??!

It reminds me of a time when RPGs were NOT brought to the US. Why? Because Americans did not buy them.

Did that make RPGs of lesser quality? No, it just meant American tastes had not developed yet.

Of course that appears to be too sensible of a position...

---
I am too poor to own a 360... therefor I play with paper statistics. The results of my indepth scientific anaylisis determined the most important benchmark is Pi. As in The Ring of Light.

2006-04-14 20:26:07 In reply to QuezcatoL (2006-04-14 19:33:36)

You know, I already mentioned that ;) I never denied some people think FF7 is the best game ever.

The problem is you seem to have a problem accepting that many people think FFX was even better.

Still waiting to hear why FFX, factually, was not a AAA title.

---
I am too poor to own a 360... therefor I play with paper statistics. The results of my indepth scientific anaylisis determined the most important benchmark is Pi. As in The Ring of Light.

2006-04-14 20:37:37

I think you forget that the market size at the time of FF7 was a lot smaller than when FFX was released, and many of these "new fans to the series/new fans to the PS2" haven't played FF7.

Please prove this because your arguement is seriously flawed because of the growth of the market since FF7.

I am also saying that as a Final Fantasy fan and so is Quezcatol that we don't think FF7 is over rated so it depends intirely on the individuals opinion.(which you agree on)

Basing a series/game on someone elses opinion is pointless.This is a bit insulting, I'm not taking that stance, it's what i actually believe.

I'm not paticularlly a fan boy of FF7, I thought Shenmue was better and i'm sure many FF7 fans would disagree with me, this is the thing with opinions everyone has a different one.

I understand what you are saying to some degree, it really despends on your definition of AAA, does AAA = sales or AAA = an awesome game.

Also if you look at FF12 it sold 2.2 million in it's first couple of weeks so in that case FF12 is the best Final Fantasy of the series.

A lot of the people who bought FF12 didn't know what to expect from the game, some love it, some hate it.

But sales don't mean a game is a good as the above example would prove.(not saying FF12 isn't a good game)

I think any FF (with a number behind it) could be considered a AAA title.

2006-04-14 20:44:48

So now your blaming us for stupid people ... ?? LOL

2006-04-14 21:07:22 In reply to QuezcatoL (2006-04-14 15:04:56)

Actually, for many of the reviews they add Famitsu scores or they used to.

Anyway, Famitsu is an eastern magazine and gamerankings tends to more western tastes. Besides, one score is not going to affect the overall ranking in any significant way.

Someone saying they don't like FFVII because they don't like RPG's is silly but there are many others who rated it lower simply just because they didn't like the game. However, if you read most of the reviews it is clear that not everyone considers it to be the god-like game some other people consider it to be.

And of course you can see soccer games. I mean Pro Evolution Soccer 3 is one of the higher rated games with an average of 94.3%.

You talk about how Gamespot gave some certain games scores that were too high but so did Famitsu. I mean Nintendogs and Wind Waker don't deserve perfect scores. FFXII might but I would rather wait until I played that to decide.

RPG's are liked in America as well. I mean Chronno Trigger is one of the top 10 rated games of all time and if you look at any major Top 100 list it is likely you will see a lot of RPG's. Reviewer's maybe regular people but they do spend a lot more time playing games than you or I do and there is a process to how they review games to make sure it is fair. The systems are not perfect but they work in the general sense.

It is your bias and close mindedness that prevents you from realising that it is possible for ANY type of game to be in the top 10, NFL or otherwise. I am not American but I find that in general, Western sites are more open minded than the Japanese ones. I personally don't like NFL games (mainly because I haven't played many) but I do recognise that any kind of game can be amazing.

Also, when FFVII was released there weren't as many gaming sites as there are now so stop trying to draw suspiscious conclusions where there are none.

2006-04-14 21:28:20

FF this, FF that...

AAA title or not, it sure draws some serious debate.
You either like it or you don't, I'd say.

I like the Phantasy Star games much more.

You know, maybe we should change the thread title.
The OT discussion here far outwieghs the on topic stuff.

Then we can boulet time the thread starter!! :D
(jk, of course)

2006-04-14 23:12:16

Yeah,im not gonna continue and argue i said my things,like how i would never listen to gamerankings.com,i just think its funny that the guy who gaved ff7 and ff9 6/10 and said he doesnt like rpgs and recommend FF movie instead of those games gaved FF10 9/10.

Thats all,you gotta love that guy >_< V

And yes FF movie almost made squaresoft bankrupt,thats why they gathered up with Enix.

2006-04-14 23:24:48

Btw the whole arguing started with that guy not accepting my comment...

2006-04-14 02:59:37
I know they did,and FF7 as the 2nd.
I agree with FF7 being the top 5 game ever made,but ff10? lol... its disgusting.
And btw they even choose ff3 as the 8 best game of all time,wtf?!

Now i love sakaguchi who is doing BD+LO to 360,but i played FF3,and sure it was fine,and great at that time,but...8th place? wtf;grew up bias fanboys aka only japanese games are good kind of people :P


And yes,as a FF fan,i can agree with ff7 being topp 5 as famitsu readers,and gamefaqs readers,however,ff10 is just a disgusting FF game,that made me vomit,i played ff4-ff10,and i never feelt so much hate towards ff10.
Sure it has the best graphic in the serie,but just the characters attitude and look and dialog...yuk...and running in a straight road the whole fucking game :S

And where was my airship that i could fly?
And not having to point at a map where to go...

Thank god Sakaguchi left!

2006-04-14 23:56:15

Eeeeh, went into to the thread thinking that I could find a nice discussion about BIA, boy was I wrong...

2006-04-15 00:18:54 In reply to Ajsomfan (2006-04-14 23:56:15)

BiA rocks ;)

<valley-girl>Anyhow, like everyone knows that BiA and FF are like the same game!</valley-girl> I guess you missed the tactive WWII FPS mode in FF7!

---
I am too poor to own a 360... therefor I play with paper statistics. The results of my indepth scientific anaylisis determined the most important benchmark is Pi. As in The Ring of Light.

2006-04-15 00:56:04

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a317/QuezcatoL/f...

I feel like steiner :P

PEOPLE,THAT TOMB RAIDER PIC ON MY DESKBOARDS ISN'T MY GAME,WAS A FRIEND WHO INSTALLED IT;BE NOT FOOLED!!!
YES ITS THE WHOLE GAME,BUT I NEVER INSTALLED IT...
I dont want to be associated as a TB fan :P