X360

Project Gotham Racing 4 Project Gotham Racing 4

Microsoft Game Studios / Bizarre Creations

Type: Racing

Release date: Available

 
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Bizarre Creations interview

Bizarre Creations interview

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2007-10-06 12:09:47 by Manager

The great Ben Ward, Community & Web Lead over at Bizarre Creations, has taken time to answer a big bunch of questions about Project Gotham Racing 4. Thanks to the XCN, we can find out more about their thoughts about PGR3, team online racing, DLC and much much more.
 
Vidéos		 Since Format Size
DLC Tourist gameplay		 > 3 Months 640x360 37 MB
DLC Tourist gameplay		 > 3 Months 640x360 35 MB
DLC Faux gameplay		 > 3 Months 640x360 44 MB
DLC Faux gameplay		 > 3 Months 640x360 41 MB
DLC Tourist gameplay		 > 3 Months 640x360 29 MB
DLC Faux gameplay		 > 3 Months 640x360 35 MB
Geometry Wars Waves		 > 3 Months 640x360 80 MB
Geometry Wars Waves		 > 3 Months 1280x720 260 MB
Superstar Challenge London		 > 3 Months 640x360 85 MB
Superstar Challenge London		 > 3 Months 1280x720 283 MB
Speed Challenge Las Vegas		 > 3 Months 640x360 24 MB
Speed Challenge Las Vegas		 > 3 Months 1280x720 74 MB
Electric Car		 > 3 Months 640x360 69 MB
Electric Car		 > 3 Months 1280x720 219 MB
Cone Gate London		 > 3 Months 640x360 117 MB
Cone Gate London		 > 3 Months 1280x720 371 MB
Time Vs Kudos St Petersburg		 > 3 Months 640x360 81 MB
Time Vs Kudos St Petersburg		 > 3 Months 1280x720 256 MB
Time Vs Kudos Quebec		 > 3 Months 640x360 142 MB
Time Vs Kudos Quebec		 > 3 Months 1280x720 488 MB
The first 10 minutes: PGR4		 > 3 Months 640x360 251 MB
The first 10 minutes: PGR4		 > 3 Months 1280x720 759 MB
Geometry Wars Waves		 > 3 Months 1280x720 201 MB
Cone Gate London		 > 3 Months 1280x720 343 MB
Electric Car		 > 3 Months 1280x720 205 MB
The first 10 minutes: PGR4		 > 3 Months 1280x720 721 MB
Speed Challenge Las Vegas		 > 3 Months 1280x720 69 MB
Superstar Challenge London		 > 3 Months 1280x720 269 MB
Time Vs Kudos Quebec		 > 3 Months 1280x720 466 MB
Time Vs Kudos St Petersburg		 > 3 Months 1280x720 241 MB
Live Action vs Game		 > 3 Months 640x360 6 MB
Live Action vs Game		 > 3 Months 1280x720 15 MB
Live Action vs Game		 > 3 Months 1280x720 13 MB
Presentation: End of championship		 > 3 Months 640x360 85 MB
Presentation: End of championship		 > 3 Months 960x540 154 MB
Presentation: End of championship		 > 3 Months 960x540 191 MB
Snowy Quebec presentation		 > 3 Months 640x360 94 MB
Snowy Quebec presentation		 > 3 Months 640x360 94 MB
Snowy Quebec presentation		 > 3 Months 960x540 174 MB
Snowy Quebec presentation		 > 3 Months 960x540 174 MB
Snowy Quebec presentation		 > 3 Months 960x540 204 MB
Snowy Quebec presentation		 > 3 Months 960x540 204 MB
Gamersyde No Comment: Audio Design		 > 3 Months 640x360 120 MB
Gamersyde No Comment: Audio Design		 > 3 Months 640x360 120 MB
Gamersyde No Comment: Audio Design		 > 3 Months 640x360 120 MB
Nürburgring under the snow, off screen		 > 3 Months 640x360 36 MB
Nürburgring under the snow, off screen		 > 3 Months 640x360 36 MB
Nürburgring under the snow, off screen		 > 3 Months 960x540 69 MB
Nürburgring under the snow, off screen		 > 3 Months 960x540 69 MB
Nürburgring under the snow, off screen		 > 3 Months 960x540 84 MB
Nürburgring under the snow, off screen		 > 3 Months 960x540 84 MB
Gamersyde No Comment: Cities		 > 3 Months 640x360 275 MB
Gamersyde No Comment: Cities		 > 3 Months 640x360 275 MB
Gamersyde No Comment: Cities		 > 3 Months 1280x720 630 MB
Gamersyde No Comment: Cities		 > 3 Months 1280x720 630 MB
Gamersyde No Comment: Cities		 > 3 Months 1280x720 770 MB
Gamersyde No Comment: Cities		 > 3 Months 1280x720 770 MB
Gamersyde No Comment: Audio Design		 > 3 Months 640x360 106 MB
Gamersyde No Comment: Audio Design		 > 3 Months 640x360 106 MB
Gamersyde No Comment: Audio Design		 > 3 Months 640x360 158 MB
Gamersyde No Comment: Audio Design		 > 3 Months 640x360 158 MB
Cone Attack, Las Vegas		 > 3 Months 640x360 35 MB
Cone Attack, Las Vegas		 > 3 Months 640x360 35 MB
Cone Attack, Las Vegas		 > 3 Months 1280x720 117 MB
Cone Attack, Las Vegas		 > 3 Months 1280x720 117 MB
Cone Attack, Las Vegas		 > 3 Months 1280x720 132 MB
Cone Attack, Las Vegas		 > 3 Months 1280x720 132 MB
Shangai by night, motorbike		 > 3 Months 640x360 77 MB
Shangai by night, motorbike		 > 3 Months 640x360 77 MB
Shangai by night, motorbike		 > 3 Months 1280x720 237 MB
Shangai by night, motorbike		 > 3 Months 1280x720 237 MB
Shangai by night, motorbike		 > 3 Months 1280x720 296 MB
Shangai by night, motorbike		 > 3 Months 1280x720 296 MB
Saint Petersburg in the fog on a bike		 > 3 Months 640x360 49 MB
Saint Petersburg in the fog on a bike		 > 3 Months 640x360 49 MB
Saint Petersburg in the fog on a bike		 > 3 Months 1280x720 154 MB
Saint Petersburg in the fog on a bike		 > 3 Months 1280x720 154 MB
Saint Petersburg in the fog on a bike		 > 3 Months 1280x720 230 MB
Saint Petersburg in the fog on a bike		 > 3 Months 1280x720 230 MB
Direct feed intro		 > 3 Months 640x360 52 MB
Direct feed intro		 > 3 Months 640x360 52 MB
Direct feed intro		 > 3 Months 1280x720 130 MB
Direct feed intro		 > 3 Months 1280x720 130 MB
Direct feed intro		 > 3 Months 1280x720 145 MB
Direct feed intro		 > 3 Months 1280x720 145 MB
Snowy Quebec		 > 3 Months 640x360 33 MB
Snowy Quebec		 > 3 Months 640x360 33 MB
Snowy Quebec		 > 3 Months 640x360 33 MB
Snowy Quebec		 > 3 Months 1280x720 110 MB
Snowy Quebec		 > 3 Months 1280x720 110 MB
Snowy Quebec		 > 3 Months 1280x720 110 MB
Snowy Quebec		 > 3 Months 1280x720 87 MB
Snowy Quebec		 > 3 Months 1280x720 87 MB
Snowy Quebec		 > 3 Months 1280x720 87 MB
GC07: Intro		 > 3 Months 640x360 56 MB
GC07: Intro		 > 3 Months 960x540 104 MB
GC07: Intro		 > 3 Months 960x540 119 MB
E3: Offscreen gameplay		 > 3 Months 960x540 69 MB
E3: MSFT PGR4 gameplay		 > 3 Months 960x540 74 MB
E3: MSFT PGR4 gameplay		 > 3 Months 960x540 74 MB
E3: Marketplace trailer		 > 3 Months 1280x720 85 MB
E3: Marketplace trailer		 > 3 Months 1280x720 85 MB
E3: Games montage		 > 3 Months 320x240 19 MB
St Peters Rain		 > 3 Months 1280x720 46 MB
X06: Teaser		 > 3 Months 640x360 8 MB
 
Gallery		 Since Number of images
DLC images		 > 3 Months 8
DLC images		 > 3 Months 11
4 DLC images		 > 3 Months 4
16 images		 > 3 Months 16
16 images		 > 3 Months 16
1 image		 > 3 Months 1
2 photo mode images		 > 3 Months 2
11 photo mode images		 > 3 Months 11
Arcade mode + 2 photo mode images		 > 3 Months 4
Un image		 > 3 Months 1
Interface + Photo mode image		 > 3 Months 4
Images		 > 3 Months 9
Game Convention images		 > 3 Months 6
All environments		 > 3 Months 1
E3 images		 > 3 Months 13
Bike (video?) captures		 > 3 Months 5
Bike images		 > 3 Months 12
The weather system		 > 3 Months 30
A mysterious city		 > 3 Months 1
Quebec City		 > 3 Months 10
4 images		 > 3 Months 4
3 images		 > 3 Months 3
First 12 official screenshots		 > 3 Months 12
 
News		 Since
PGR4 content pack released		 > 3 Months
PGR4 DLC Pack announced		 > 3 Months
Bizarre Creations interview		 > 3 Months
The first 10 minutes: PGR4		 > 3 Months
PGR4: Live Action vs Game		 > 3 Months
PGR4: Even more video		 > 3 Months
PGR4: Snowy gameplay		 > 3 Months
No Comment: PGR4 cities		 > 3 Months
Gamersyde No Comment: PGR4 audio design		 > 3 Months
More PGR4 gameplay		 > 3 Months
Direct Feed PGR4 intro video		 > 3 Months
Direct feed PGR4 gameplay		 > 3 Months
PGR 4 goes Gold !		 > 3 Months
One PGR4 image		 > 3 Months
2 PGR4 images		 > 3 Months
PGR4, back already		 > 3 Months
One PGR4 image		 > 3 Months
PGR4's interface detailed		 > 3 Months
PGR4 images		 > 3 Months
GC07: PGR4 Intro video		 > 3 Months
PGR4: Gameplay and features		 > 3 Months
GC07: PGR4 images		 > 3 Months
PGR4 screenshots montage		 > 3 Months
E3: PGR4 gameplay video		 > 3 Months
E3: Xbox 360 games montage		 > 3 Months
E3: Demo and trailer of PGR4		 > 3 Months
The bikes in Project Gotham Racing 4		 > 3 Months
One PGR4 screen, and a lot more!		 > 3 Months
Quebec City in PGR4?		 > 3 Months
4 Project Gotham Racing 4 images		 > 3 Months
Project Gotham Racing 4 images		 > 3 Months
Images and video of PGR4		 > 3 Months
X06: PGR4 teaser		 > 3 Months
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Author Message
MrArgus

Since 826 Days

2007-07-30 02:33:12

Shadowrun lol
ItsOK_ImaNinja

ItsOK_ImaNinja
Since 492 Days

2007-07-30 04:20:14 In reply to newbielives (2007-07-29 21:56:43)

Posted by newbielives
PGR4 could be a game about a guy running around the city picking his nose, I really don't care what the game is, if its fun or sucky, but the problem here is that DVD9 is limiting game content from developers forcing them to come up with compromises eg cutting game content.

There will always be games that fit on DVD9 but it hurts to think that developers of new generation Sandbox type games will have to cut content to fit DVD9 eg GTA4 having a much smaller playing area then GTA San Andreas.

Sure you can make huge maps like Oblivion by repeating textures and other procedural tricks but to get a the fedility of PGR3 cities on that scale, it's just not going to happen on DVD9
The solution is fixing the lighting model, not duplicating textures. If developers go around duplicating everything then even HD-DVD and BR won't be enough.

Its very easy to find ways to max everything out. Its just as easy to run out of space on BR disk as it is to run out of space on DVD9.

Instead of CGI, use real time.
Intead of duping textures, use a better lighting model.

What matters more is the capabilities of the hardware. These systems can handle HDR lighting and can approximate global illumination. There really isn't an excuse to make the concessions they are making in PGR4 and DVD9's capacity is not an excuse.

They could just as well use neutral textures and leave it up to the lighting to do the job.

Floating around somewhere on the net is a video of PGR3 with the developer making real time adjustments to the lighting model. They just need to stick with that.

Oblivion is another perfect example. The sun is simulated in that game, and textures don't swap out of thin air. You can stand outside the whole time in Oblivion and watch the sun go up and down and you'll see a dramatic affect on the environment due to the changes in lighting.

Crackdown does the same thing.
Saintsrow does the same thing.

In fact, even the GTA games do it.
Allen Wake also does it.

Even Morrowind on the Xbox does it.
Overlord does it too.

Tons of game do it, and there's no real excuse not to have it. Duping textures seems like such a lazy excuse. While I'm sure PGR4 will still be great, and I'm going to play it - I just don't think this is a case against DVD9 so much as it is an confession by BC that they've chosen an older method of lighting and that as a result they are wasting space on DVD9 when they should be using that space to include more levels or to add more textures or higher rez textures - instead they are wasting space by duping them.
newbielives

Since 1117 Days

2007-07-30 04:27:46 In reply to Acert93 (2007-07-30 01:47:26)

I wasn't even thinking about PS3 vs 360 rant just gaming in general but if you want one then sure

Posted by Acert93
Sure you can make huge stadiums like NCAA 2008 by repeating textures and other procedural tricks but to get a the fidelity of NCAA 2008 on the 360 on that scale, it's just not going to happen on with less RAM and less graphical umpf of the RSX.
First I like to say we don't know how well Cell can work with RSX yet, maybe oneday we will only see the RSX pushing pixels and leaving all other work to Cell, and for a fact RSX can access the XDR, just that.it may not be as obvious right now while developers get to know the tech. The only memory limitation of PS3 is probably that the OS uses more memory then the 360. I can't remember the numbers, but it's slightly more.
Posted by Acert93
We all knew that DVD9 would have limits. But hint: So does BDR. So will your rant begin when a single game exceeds BDR? I already heard a comment that that a dev needed to cull some media to fit into 25GB -- and Kojima himself said it was a limit. And lets not forget that BDR can have some pretty poor transfer rates.
You can get around slow BDR speeds by pre loading/installing to HDD that comes standard on every PS3.
Posted by Acert93
Kind of laughable that your comments can be turned around on a console that is 1 year newer and $200 more expensive. Each system has strengths and weaknesses. Many of us -- and the market in general based on the success of the PS1 and PS2 -- believe adding an extra $200 for HD Optical media was a huge mistake.
Weird you seem to take offense to me like if I was saying 360 is the SUXORS and MS is DUMAS.

I wasn't even thinking about what they have or could have done, I was just looking at the current situation, and DVD9 is a limitation.

I owned a 360 from day 1 and just recently a PS3 which I love as a Media device, and just thinking about the possibly of Cell and RSX working together like one super GPU makes my forehead sweat(Exaggeration) ,

newbielives

Since 1117 Days

2007-07-30 04:32:36 In reply to ItsOK_ImaNinja (2007-07-30 04:20:14)

I think the reason they have to use static lighting eg textures with pre renedered lighting on them, was to save resources, becasue even today's GPU are not exactly powerful enough to render all lighting in realtime, especially on that scale or with the illusion of *photo realisim* lighting found in PGR.

Posted by ItsOK_ImaNinja
The solution is fixing the lighting model, not duplicating textures. If developers go around duplicating everything then even HD-DVD and BR won't be enough.

Its very easy to find ways to max everything out. Its just as easy to run out of space on BR disk as it is to run out of space on DVD9.

Instead of CGI, use real time.
Intead of duping textures, use a better lighting model.

What matters more is the capabilities of the hardware. These systems can handle HDR lighting and can approximate global illumination. There really isn't an excuse to make the concessions they are making in PGR4 and DVD9's capacity is not an excuse.

They could just as well use neutral textures and leave it up to the lighting to do the job.

Floating around somewhere on the net is a video of PGR3 with the developer making real time adjustments to the lighting model. They just need to stick with that.

Oblivion is another perfect example. The sun is simulated in that game, and textures don't swap out of thin air. You can stand outside the whole time in Oblivion and watch the sun go up and down and you'll see a dramatic affect on the environment due to the changes in lighting.

Crackdown does the same thing.
Saintsrow does the same thing.

In fact, even the GTA games do it.
Allen Wake also does it.

Even Morrowind on the Xbox does it.
Overlord does it too.

Tons of game do it, and there's no real excuse not to have it. Duping textures seems like such a lazy excuse. While I'm sure PGR4 will still be great, and I'm going to play it - I just don't think this is a case against DVD9 so much as it is an confession by BC that they've chosen an older method of lighting and that as a result they are wasting space on DVD9 when they should be using that space to include more levels or to add more textures or higher rez textures - instead they are wasting space by duping them.
ItsOK_ImaNinja

ItsOK_ImaNinja
Since 492 Days

2007-07-30 05:03:11 In reply to newbielives (2007-07-30 04:32:36)

Posted by newbielives
I think the reason they have to use static lighting eg textures with pre renedered lighting on them, was to save resources, becasue even today's GPU are not exactly powerful enough to render all lighting in realtime, especially on that scale or with the illusion of *photo realisim* lighting found in PGR.
I don't know, it seems strange.

As far as I know, textures would not be a resource that would affect lighting very much unless they were using a lot of normal mapping or some kind of pixel shading that needs to be reprocessed with changes in the POV of the camera or changes in light intensity.

PGR may have that "photo realistic" style going for it, but the textures in the game are mostly just flat.

Other than the reflections on the cars and road surface, I don't see a ton of advanced textures. Certainly no parallax mapping.
GrimThorne

GrimThorne
Since 1051 Days

2007-07-30 05:57:59 In reply to deftangel (2007-07-29 16:43:29)

Posted by deftangel
As for procedural texturing, the load times in PG3 were bad enough (though they were rushing for launch so I'll let them off) but does anyone have any idea how long we'll be waiting for an entire city to load up with procedural textures? It'll be like going back to the C64 days on current hardware!
Procedural textures would be generated on the fly, you wouldn't be waiting for them to load at the beginning of a level. In the case of the 360, the texture algorithms would be loading the textures into the UMA.
deftangel

Hot stuff! deftangel - Hot stuff!
Since 1046 Days

2007-07-30 15:32:42 In reply to newbielives (2007-07-30 04:27:46)

Posted by GrimThorne
Procedural textures would be generated on the fly, you wouldn't be waiting for them to load at the beginning of a level. In the case of the 360, the texture algorithms would be loading the textures into the UMA.
Correct, you would still have to wait for them to be generated. Even on very fast hardware this takes time and it would take an age to render a PGR4 track. Maybe on Cell2 but not this generation.
Posted by newbielives
The only memory limitation of PS3 is probably that the OS uses more memory then the 360. I can't remember the numbers, but it's slightly more.
It's a lot more than slightly more. I don't recall what's public domain but if you follow places like Beyond3D you get a pretty good picture from the cross-platform devs. Several are on record as saying the 360 has a ton more memory to work with, plus the Unified nature of the architecture allows you to be flexible with what you have.

It's something Sony work hard on but an area they will always be playing catch up in. MS make operating systems for computer hardware for a living!
newbielives

Since 1117 Days

2007-07-30 16:05:25 In reply to ItsOK_ImaNinja (2007-07-30 05:03:11)

Wouldn't doing parallax mapping almost be consider calculating lighting to give the illusion of geometry?

So the whole point of saving GPU resource to avoid that all that with detailed textures that match your realtime lighting

Posted by ItsOK_ImaNinja
I don't know, it seems strange.

As far as I know, textures would not be a resource that would affect lighting very much unless they were using a lot of normal mapping or some kind of pixel shading that needs to be reprocessed with changes in the POV of the camera or changes in light intensity.

PGR may have that "photo realistic" style going for it, but the textures in the game are mostly just flat.

Other than the reflections on the cars and road surface, I don't see a ton of advanced textures. Certainly no parallax mapping.
newbielives

Since 1117 Days

2007-07-30 16:07:58 In reply to deftangel (2007-07-30 15:32:42)

You got me there, I think PS3 OS does use significantly more memory. Maybe in a future update they will introduce a longer loading screen when coming out of a game to lower the memory reservation.

Posted by deftangel
It's a lot more than slightly more. I don't recall what's public domain but if you follow places like Beyond3D you get a pretty good picture from the cross-platform devs. Several are on record as saying the 360 has a ton more memory to work with, plus the Unified nature of the architecture allows you to be flexible with what you have.

It's something Sony work hard on but an area they will always be playing catch up in. MS make operating systems for computer hardware for a living!
Janman

Janman
Since 1117 Days

2007-07-30 16:30:58 In reply to LEBATO (2007-07-29 22:31:42)

Posted by LEBATO
No. There's only one LIGHTING available, but there are variables to that one lighting. So it's either night or day and then you get to choose fog, all kinds of rain, ice, and snow which all change the lighting a bit.

Or do you mean something else?
Basically I was just wondering why foggyness would be so good. It doesn´t bother me if I really don't have to see it. But if it is anything like random thing, then it would bother me. I like long draw distance.

---
If you are curious of which games I have enjoyed over the years, click my name.
Acert93

Mr. Bad Cop Since 1149 Days

2007-07-30 20:28:36

Posted by newbielives
I wasn't even thinking about PS3 vs 360 rant just gaming in general but if you want one then sure
Obviously you missed my method and point.

Point: Consoles are about compromise in design (i.e. where the power is). This isn't Xbox 360 versus PS3, but, "All consoles make compromises and argueing that because 1 game hits a limit that a limitation was the incorrect decision is hasty if not considered in the context of all design decisions, limitations, and market factors".

Method: Take your example, word for word, and demonstrate in a different scenario (different game, different performance vector) that your criticism can be completely flip flopped.

The other point was your point was very tunnel vision oriented to the issues and a lot of your statements are inaccurate.
The only memory limitation of PS3 is probably that the OS uses more memory then the 360. I can't remember the numbers, but it's slightly more.
If you call over 50MB -- 10% -- slightly more. But it is more than just the OS. The Xbox 360 has eDRAM for back buffers, so the framebuffer is tiled to system memory for output. Your 720p image on the front buffer side is about 3.5MB. On the PS3 a 720p framebuffer is over 30MB, and 1080p (and 1080i at times) is over 60MB.

Now we are creeping in the territory of 80MB difference. So 15% isn't too bad, right? Considering you may have a couple hundred MBs in functional code and sound the percentage rises. So 80MB for OS, 30MB for the framebuffer, 100MBs for audio, 50MB for game related code, that leaves you about 260MB for graphic assets (various geometry and texture formats). On the Xbox 360 you are looking at 340MB -- that is a 30% difference in resources allocated for graphical assets.

Hence more than one multiplatform developer has bitched about the memory situation on the PS3. That and the split memory pools, that take more management, have performance gotchas and limitations, and more bandwidth restrictions to mitigate and balance.
First I like to say we don't know how well Cell can work with RSX yet, maybe oneday we will only see the RSX pushing pixels and leaving all other work to Cell,
And have the 8 VS on RSX sit idle and do nothing?

And use your SPEs for graphic tasks instead of running game code?

Sounds like a lose-lose situation. You are leaving performant silicon on RSX idle and using the CPU for core graphic tasks when they are needed to do the stuff that makes games fun, engaging, and deep.
and for a fact RSX can access the XDR,
RSX could always access XDR (20GB/s read, 15GB/s write over FlexIO). It isn't overly complicated and a lot of games have done it since launch. The problem is there are some performance issues. e.g. XDR has 25GB/s of bandwidth and with RSX you can texture (read) from XDR at 20GB/s (15.5GB/s realworld). Wow, 15.5GB/s of additional graphic bandwidth in addition to the 20GB/s of system memory... but here is a gotcha: In addition to only accessing 15 of the 25GB/s of system bandwidth, texturing from XDR also incurrs a latency penalty, i.e. it can slow you down.

Oh, and you just sucked up the majority of your system memory bandwidth (and footprint) from CELL.
just that.it may not be as obvious right now while developers get to know the tech. The only memory limitation of PS3 is probably that the OS uses more memory then the 360. I can't remember the numbers, but it's slightly more.
"only memory limtiation" is pretty inaccurate as I have shown. You have limitations to bandwidth, footprint, and resource management (split memory pools).

So, lets return to my point:

"All consoles make compromises and argueing that because 1 game hits a limit that a limitation was the incorrect decision is hasty if not considered in the context of all design decisions, limitations, and market factors".

By your reasoning, that no HD optical media was a poor design and market decision because a game has hit a store limition, the same logical conclusion can be drawn that the PS3 has been limited in many, many games in regards to system memory.

If no HD optical was a mistake in the Xbox 360, then memory limitations in the PS3 was a mistake by Sony.

The issue isn't so clear now, is it?
GTA4, why do you think the scale of this game won't be on the sacle of past GTA games. DVD9 limitation.

...

but it hurts to think that developers of new generation Sandbox type games will have to cut content to fit DVD9 eg GTA4 having a much smaller playing area then GTA San Andreas.
Wrong. As mentioned before, a game like GTA will be using more dynamic lighting and shadowing solutions due to its use of dynamic day cycle. This means less precomputed solutions (static shadow maps, light maps, maybe even fewer prebaked texture passes like AO maps, etc).

Further, GTA:SA was under 1.5GB. Sandbox games do not tend to be huge, contrary to popular opinion.

So you have put forth a conslusion, DVD9 limitations holding back the scale of GTAIV, and haven't done anything at all to substantiate this position. The current crop of sandbox games with realtime day cycles indicate this hasn't been an issue.
MS has to also support the Core system that has no hard drive, so even if that is a viable solution, they can't use it.
Not totally. Games use what is present. A lot of games have, "If HDD present, then cache; if no HDD, no cache". Users without HDDs get longer load times. The Xbox worked in a similar way.
but the problem here is that DVD9 is limiting game content from developers forcing them to come up with compromises eg cutting game content.
All games have compromises. 1 game out of 200+ hit this specific limitation, so it is now a significant issue?

What of all the other design and performance issues that crop more often?

Where is the priority? Why? How does this affect cost and reasonable market penetration?
There will always be games that fit on DVD9
Like almost all current games :|

It is statements like this that resulted in my tongue and cheek response. Truly the reverse is true, "There will always be a few games that cannot fit on DVD9..." in which case you can either span disks, cache to the HDD, or in a few cases the user will get reduced asset quality (sound, textures, mech complexity) or the developer will need to impliment unique solutions that are system specific like procedural generation.

Making a big deal out of a rare occurance -- when far more weightier issues affects many [most!] games -- and looks at the issue very narrowly (i.e. HD optical not available, limited production in 2006, HUGE expense) seems like special pleading.

---
The fans have spoken. Concerning the graphics of the Halo 3 Beta: "There's so many little effects and things going on that make this game pretty much 2nd only to Gears at the moment."
Inflatable

Inflatable
Since 1816 Days

2007-07-30 20:39:58

To make a long Acert93 story short, the Xbox 360 has limitations in storagespace, but the PS3 has bigger limitations in memory to run games then the Xbox 360, which can be considered a bigger issue then a limitation in storagespace, because it affects all next-gen games and not just the very few that need more storagespace then DVD9 offers..

There you go.. :P

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http://www.cyberwarriors.nl
http://home.xmsnet.nl/bigbear/fiat124.jpg
Acert93

Mr. Bad Cop Since 1149 Days

2007-07-30 22:51:47 In reply to Inflatable (2007-07-30 20:39:58)

Posted by Inflatable
To make a long Acert93 story short, the Xbox 360 has limitations in storagespace, but the PS3 has bigger limitations in memory to run games then the Xbox 360, which can be considered a bigger issue then a limitation in storagespace, because it affects all next-gen games and not just the very few that need more storagespace then DVD9 offers..

There you go.. :P
See, you are good for something Inflatable ;) You can be my bulletpoint man! :P

Interestingly, there are always all kinds of tradeoffs based on design. There are cases where the PS3 memory architecture could be an advantage. But then again there are cases where DVD9 can be an advantage.

Getting bent out of shape because a developer had to mitigate a limitation isn't really a big deal unless it becomes a significant bottleneck to design and is a recurring issue without remedy.

Consoles are a lot about exploiting what you have and making the most of it and leveraging the closed design and absolute consistant performance threshholds to your advantage.

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The fans have spoken. Concerning the graphics of the Halo 3 Beta: "There's so many little effects and things going on that make this game pretty much 2nd only to Gears at the moment."
szaromir

szaromir
Since 935 Days

2007-07-30 23:14:06

I think smaller disc capacity will have bigger impact than big OS footprint/split memory pools eventually. You can have good textures as they are in Uncharted.

You can't blame Microsoft for that, though. Sony put BRD in their machine in order to make it future proof (and to help BRD against HD_DVD), but it made their machine very expensive, which is one of reasons why it is selling so poorly, and ultimately it won't have that long lifespan due to limited userbase (if it continues to sell so badly and 3rd parties will start to leaving PS3 after this Holiday season, Sony might be in huge trouble).

As much as someone can bitch about DVD limiting 360 games, it's weird that Microsofts games offer so much more in terms of content and gameplay length (most of Sony's games are single player campaigns only...)

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"That just happened 'cause that was awesome" - Randy Pitchford, Gearbox
newbielives

Since 1117 Days

2007-07-30 23:18:27 In reply to Acert93 (2007-07-30 20:28:36)

Now I have a second thing to worry about :( I will live longer if I just forget all this.
If what you say is true and there is no ingenius way to get around the memory limitation then hopefully the PS3 can make up for lower res Tex with better effects, animations, and higher poly models.

I will let Uncharted, Killzone2, Burnout Paradise, Rachet and Clank speak for what the PS3 can do when they are release, until then I will cross my fingers that some genius is finding away to overcome the memory limitation you speak of.

Also on a side note, the reason I seem so adament of the PS3 is that after having my 360 replaced because RedRingOfDeath, you really start to appreciate the PS3 more for its quiet stabability. Also in Canada it's only a 150$ more to buy a PS3 and you get a freaking Bluray player, Wireless connection 40GB more space and it Upscales all my PS2 games better then my shitty TV's scaler chip. I have to say after owning the PS3 it's become my (Car of choice)

You just want it to be successful.

szaromir

szaromir
Since 935 Days

2007-07-31 00:04:13 In reply to newbielives (2007-07-30 23:18:27)

I will let Uncharted, Killzone2, Burnout Paradise, Rachet and Clank speak for what the PS3 can do when they are release, until then I will cross my fingers that some genius is finding away to overcome the memory limitation you speak of.
I'm sure there will be impressive titles on PS3, just like there will be on 360. Consoles have similar performance, so we shouldn't be obsessed about that.:)
You just want it to be successful.
And then you have Sony becoming abolutely stagnative once they are dominant on the market, not caring about improving their shitty controllers and so on and so on.Market should be split evenly IMO so that neither console manufacturer ignores consumer needs.

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"That just happened 'cause that was awesome" - Randy Pitchford, Gearbox
Eddy186
This message is in "Boulet Time" (TM), If you still *really* want to see it, click here
GriftGFX

He can also
ban your ass! GriftGFX - He can also<br>ban your ass!
Since 1178 Days

2007-07-31 01:20:59 In reply to Eddy186 (2007-07-31 00:10:28)

Posted by Eddy186
Well from this thread we can obviously point out some of gamersydes' 360 and ps3 fans.

LOL, gamersyde is not turning into that big of a war, yet.
This seems like a pretty stable discussion so far, let's not rock the boat :P
Optimusv2

Optimusv2
Since 1070 Days

2007-07-31 02:51:36

Come to think of it... I completely forgot about that lol.

It seems playsyde and xboxyde has merged rather nicely like one big happy family :)

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Hironobu Sakaguchi is coming back to reclaim the throne :)

October 20th 2007 (A good day)

Don't ask any questions just shut up and buy Halo : Ghosts of the Onyx one of the greatest books ever.

pssh! more like electronic gay-ming monthly! amirite

ItsOK_ImaNinja

ItsOK_ImaNinja
Since 492 Days

2007-07-31 07:01:32 In reply to newbielives (2007-07-30 16:05:25)

Posted by GrimThorne
Procedural textures would be generated on the fly, you wouldn't be waiting for them to load at the beginning of a level. In the case of the 360, the texture algorithms would be loading the textures into the UMA.
Actually no, procedural textures would be read directly from L2 cache.
Posted by newbielives
Wouldn't doing parallax mapping almost be consider calculating lighting to give the illusion of geometry?

So the whole point of saving GPU resource to avoid that all that with detailed textures that match your realtime lighting
Parallax mapping is vertex shading intensive, not pixel. It generates geometry and requires a tessellation unit in order for it to be processed in a single pass.

Acert93

Mr. Bad Cop Since 1149 Days

2007-07-31 15:14:43 In reply to ItsOK_ImaNinja (2007-07-31 07:01:32)

Posted by ItsOK_ImaNinja
Actually no, procedural textures would be read directly from L2 cache.
Yes and No. You could generate them on demand, over and over again, and depending on the limitations of the hardware they could be done possibly with the quad or pixel you are working on or could be generated and written to memory and then called [and then destroyed]. OR you could just do them at "level load time" and start your procedural generation application and generate your procedural textures and store them into memory.

There are a lot of ways you can do procedural textures--everything from the artist design stages for generating base content to later be altered and packaged down to runtime on demand.
Parallax mapping is vertex shading intensive, not pixel. It generates geometry and requires a tessellation unit in order for it to be processed in a single pass.
Nope.

Displacement mapping is the technique of using textures to generate geometry (of which a tesselation unit is very helpful in doing single pass displacement).

Parallax mapping, or as Epic calls it virtual displacement mapping, is pixel shading intensive, not vertex. It is essentially a progression of bump mapping; in Parallax Mapping the effect is create "parallax" ie the sense of depth through the forground and background shifting independantly based upon the point of view and angle of the observer. There is no geometry created -- hence POM fails when you get flush with the real geometry (e.g. a brick wall using POM for the grouting looks real until you get flush, in whichc ase all the depth is lost and you see a flat wall). POM doesn't require a tesselation unit either; see RSX's use of parallax mapping in games like Motorstorm.

---
The fans have spoken. Concerning the graphics of the Halo 3 Beta: "There's so many little effects and things going on that make this game pretty much 2nd only to Gears at the moment."
ItsOK_ImaNinja

ItsOK_ImaNinja
Since 492 Days

2007-08-01 01:22:44 In reply to Acert93 (2007-07-31 15:14:43)

Posted by Acert93
Nope.

Displacement mapping is the technique of using textures to generate geometry (of which a tesselation unit is very helpful in doing single pass displacement).

Parallax mapping, or as Epic calls it virtual displacement mapping, is pixel shading intensive, not vertex. It is essentially a progression of bump mapping; in Parallax Mapping the effect is create "parallax" ie the sense of depth through the forground and background shifting independantly based upon the point of view and angle of the observer. There is no geometry created -- hence POM fails when you get flush with the real geometry (e.g. a brick wall using POM for the grouting looks real until you get flush, in whichc ase all the depth is lost and you see a flat wall). POM doesn't require a tesselation unit either; see RSX's use of parallax mapping in games like Motorstorm.
Why developers would choose to anything other than have Xenos read directly from L2 cache on Xenon is beyond me, as it is very likely that even procedural textures would be delivered to Xenon first as a compressed package to be decompressed on and read to L2 cache in real time / on the fly.

Seems like it would just be the fastest way to do it.

About parallax mapping - I don't know where you are getting your info but as far as I know, even bump mapping requires vertex shading.

These effects are often just called pixel sha