ID's RAGE and TECH5

Since 8214 Days

Interview with Carmack about this issue: http://www.gamevideos.com/video/id/20047

Imho this says it's not sure Rage is gonna be multi-DVD, it just says that Carmack doesn't agree with MS's policy of charging royalties per disc instead of per game.. He says it would be a shame if because of this a PS3 version of a game would turn out a bit better when it doesn't have to be because of that issue.. He also says the PS3 has nothing over the Xbox 360 besides the bigger storagecapacity of Blu-ray, he even says the Xbox 360 is a bit more powerfull when it comes to graphics.. The PS3 Cell CPU in theory is more powerfull then the Xbox 360 CPU, but in practise hardly anyone will be able to get everything out of it he says, because it's really complicated, takes a lot of time and therefor is to costly..

So what he is bassicly saying, is that if MS would release a Xbox 360 with Blu-ray built in, that would be a superieur console to the PS3.. This will shock a lot of people who still think the PS3 is the more powerfull better machine (mainly because it's more expensive and released a year later)..

Personally this doesn't surprise me at all, because I've always felt from the beginning that the PS3 wasn't that more special, and the only reason why it was released a year later and is more expensive is because of the Blu-ray drive.. They're both consoles with 2005 tech inside, with the only exception the Blu-ray drive of the PS3.. And I've always felt by the time storagecapacity really became an issue with DVD, there would already be a next-gen announced by MS, and I still feel that way.. I think by 2010 MS will have announced their 3rd generation Xbox with a Blu-ray drive built in (much more powerfull then a Xbox 360 or PS3, much bigger harddrive to install games on, and 1080p standard etc).. By 2011 it will be on the shelves..

In reply to

Interview with Carmack about this issue: http://www.gamevideos.com/video/id/20047

Imho this says it's not sure Rage is gonna be multi-DVD, it just says that Carmack doesn't agree with MS's policy of charging royalties per disc instead of per game.. He says it would be a shame if because of this a PS3 version of a game would turn out a bit better when it doesn't have to be because of that issue.. He also says the PS3 has nothing over the Xbox 360 besides the bigger storagecapacity of Blu-ray, he even says the Xbox 360 is a bit more powerfull when it comes to graphics.. The PS3 Cell CPU in theory is more powerfull then the Xbox 360 CPU, but in practise hardly anyone will be able to get everything out of it he says, because it's really complicated, takes a lot of time and therefor is to costly..

So what he is bassicly saying, is that if MS would release a Xbox 360 with Blu-ray built in, that would be a superieur console to the PS3.. This will shock a lot of people who still think the PS3 is the more powerfull better machine (mainly because it's more expensive and released a year later)..

Personally this doesn't surprise me at all, because I've always felt from the beginning that the PS3 wasn't that more special, and the only reason why it was released a year later and is more expensive is because of the Blu-ray drive.. They're both consoles with 2005 tech inside, with the only exception the Blu-ray drive of the PS3.. And I've always felt by the time storagecapacity really became an issue with  DVD, there would already be a next-gen announced by MS, and I still feel that way.. I think by 2010 MS will have announced their 3rd generation Xbox with a Blu-ray drive built in (much more powerfull then a Xbox 360 or PS3, much bigger harddrive to install games on, and 1080p standard etc).. By 2011 it will be on the shelves..

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Phellan_Wolf

Since 6921 Days

Carmack never shuts up. He always speaks clearly. Even if he is conceited, he knows what he is talking about, and it is the best coder out there. One of those genious much better than Tim Sweeney from Epic.
But IMO, I think that the new install option for the fall update is to solve this problem. I see that after the fall update we are going to see a lot of games that will use a mandatory install, and I do not like that, a console it is not a Pc.

In reply to

Optimusv2

Since 7469 Days

Posted by Phellan_Wolf

Carmack never shuts up. He always speaks clearly. Even if he is conceited, he knows what he is talking about, and it is the best coder out there. One of those genious much better than Tim Sweeney from Epic.
But IMO, I think that the new install option for the fall update is to solve this problem. I see that after the fall update we are going to see a lot of games that will use a mandatory install, and I do not like that, a console it is not a Pc.

Good thing Microsoft makes those installs optional then eh ? :P

In reply to

Hironobu Sakaguchi is coming back to reclaim the throne :)

October 20th 2007 (A good day)

Don't ask any questions just shut up and buy Halo : Ghosts of the Onyx one of the greatest books ever.

pssh! more like electronic gay-ming monthly! amirite

Optimusv2

Since 7469 Days

Listened to some of those interviews from Carmack. I just love the way he cuts through all the bull whenever he speaks about the consoles.

In reply to

Hironobu Sakaguchi is coming back to reclaim the throne :)

October 20th 2007 (A good day)

Don't ask any questions just shut up and buy Halo : Ghosts of the Onyx one of the greatest books ever.

pssh! more like electronic gay-ming monthly! amirite

Phellan_Wolf

Since 6921 Days

Posted by Optimusv2

Listened to some of those interviews from Carmack. I just love the way he cuts through all the bull whenever he speaks about the consoles.

Because he is the man :P. IMO he never lies, and when it comes to speak the truth no one wants to listen to him. He is really tough in that sense.

In reply to

Isomac

Since 7344 Days

Quake-Con 08: Game Design Interview HD: http://www.gametrailers.com/player/37901.html?type...

Heheh I always like how some people starts to bash Carmack when he says something they don't want to hear. Next they start their own calculations and says that Carmack is wrong :P Hahah. I don't think there is many people that know as much as Carmack for this stuff so people should just listen and STFU.

In reply to

Osu! Tatakae! Ouendan 2
War, war never changes...
Demigod

Isomac

Since 7344 Days

Some really good info here about the game: http://www.shacknews.com/onearticle.x/53996

In reply to

Osu! Tatakae! Ouendan 2
War, war never changes...
Demigod

Inflatable

Since 8214 Days

Posted by Phellan_Wolf

But IMO, I think that the new install option for the fall update is to solve this problem. I see that after the fall update we are going to see a lot of games that will use a mandatory install, and I do not like that, a console it is not a Pc.

You see the thing is, I think consoles have reached some kind of ceiling of what they can do with streaming/loading from a disc.. That technique is simply to slow to get really big next-gen games up&running smoothly, and that's why they also have to move towards installing and loading gamedata from faster harddrives.. Especially games that use a lot of streaming data will benifit from it (see GTA-IV etc)..

Plus I hope there will be some kind of option to not have the gamedisc anymore aswell on consoles, just install the game once on the harddrive and that's it.. More comfort for us lazy gamers, just switch games on the fly without having to switch discs.. But I doubt we'll see it any time soon because even on PC I still have to use no-cd cracks a lot, especially for SP games.. That's because they're still affraid of piracy, but I think MS got that under control on the Xbox 360 as most people don't want to get banned of Xbox Live so don't take the risk..

We'll see, but I don't think installing games on a hardrive is a bad thing at all (as a PC gamer I'm used to it)..

In reply to

[quote=Phellan_Wolf]But IMO, I think that the new install option for the fall update is to solve this problem. I see that after the fall update we are going to see a lot of games that will use a mandatory install, and I do not like that, a console it is not a Pc.[/quote]
You see the thing is, I think consoles have reached some kind of ceiling of what they can do with streaming/loading from a disc.. That technique is simply to slow to get really big next-gen games up&running smoothly, and that's why they also have to move towards installing and loading gamedata from faster harddrives.. Especially games that use a lot of streaming data will benifit from it (see GTA-IV etc)..

Plus I hope there will be some kind of option to not have the gamedisc anymore aswell on consoles, just install the game once on the harddrive and that's it.. More comfort for us lazy gamers, just switch games on the fly without having to switch discs.. But I doubt we'll see it any time soon because even on PC I still have to use no-cd cracks a lot, especially for SP games.. That's because they're still affraid of piracy, but I think MS got that under control on the Xbox 360 as most people don't want to get banned of Xbox Live so don't take the risk..

We'll see, but I don't think installing games on a hardrive is a bad thing at all (as a PC gamer I'm used to it)..

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Jollipop

Since 7459 Days

I duno what hes whining about surely EA would foot the royalities bill seeing as they are the one publishing it.

In reply to

Marumaro for the WIN !!

Slabs

Since 7607 Days

I love watching people melt down when Carmack says something they don't like (or have allowed themselves to believe differently through PR)

His public statement about DVD royalty costs will likely get him exactly what he wants from Microsoft (ie. reduced costs for extra discs) if and when he needs it for his games.

In reply to

Acert93

Since 7547 Days

Posted by Jollipop

I duno what hes whining about surely EA would foot the royalities bill seeing as they are the one publishing it.

id Software also has licensees of id Tech5 in mind as well.

In reply to

I am watching YOU.

Jollipop

Since 7459 Days

Posted by Acert93

id Software also has licensees of id Tech5 in mind as well.

You make a good point, but I doubt it will matter for the majority of games that use the engine, I guess time will tell though.

In reply to

Marumaro for the WIN !!

Acert93

Since 7547 Days

Posted by Jollipop

You make a good point, but I doubt it will matter for the majority of games that use the engine, I guess time will tell though.

It may matter for the id Tech5 engine because of it stores data. Instead of tiling the same texture repeatedly (which saves disk space; but results in a lot of draw calls and overhead on the GPU and memory bandwidth as well as lacks diversity) id Tech5's megatextures is a single uberbig texture. This is a better use of GPU texturing resources and has a MUCH smaller RAM footprint, but the cost is that EVERY pixel of data for the level is UNIQUE which requires a lot more storage space.

Think of a game like Battlefield. You may have a couple dozen textures for the ground and they fan into eachother and have a constrast layer, etc. Lets say the ground in BF is 50MB of unique textures. Now in id Tech5 that ENTIRE map's pixels are unique and a single massive texture. In a typical level in id Tech5, according to id Software, a single levels textures are well over 500MB just for the megatexture alone -- far outside the space of RAM. But that is where streaming comes in (you only need x% of texture at any one time, and now you are not holding onto textures later on in the map you may NEVER use).

So you have inflated your optical disk space with unique content, but have reduced GPU and memory usage.

In a nutshell a game of similar size to RAGE will be huge. All the games with id Tech5 will use up a lot of disk space because that is the technical tradeoff of the technology.

In reply to

[quote=Jollipop]You make a good point, but I doubt it will matter for the majority of games that use the engine, I guess time will tell though.[/quote]

It may matter for the id Tech5 engine because of it stores data. Instead of tiling the same texture repeatedly (which saves disk space; but results in a lot of draw calls and overhead on the GPU and memory bandwidth as well as lacks diversity) id Tech5's megatextures is a single uberbig texture. This is a better use of GPU texturing resources and has a MUCH smaller RAM footprint, but the cost is that EVERY pixel of data for the level is UNIQUE which requires a lot more storage space.

Think of a game like Battlefield. You may have a couple dozen textures for the ground and they fan into eachother and have a constrast layer, etc. Lets say the ground in BF is 50MB of unique textures. Now in id Tech5 that ENTIRE map's pixels are unique and a single massive texture. In a typical level in id Tech5, according to id Software, a single levels textures are well over 500MB just for the megatexture alone -- far outside the space of RAM. But that is where streaming comes in (you only need x% of texture at any one time, and now you are not holding onto textures later on in the map you may NEVER use).

So you have inflated your optical disk space with unique content, but have reduced GPU and memory usage.

In a nutshell a game of similar size to RAGE will be huge. All the games with id Tech5 will use up a lot of disk space because that is the technical tradeoff of the technology.

I am watching YOU.

wuffyx

Since 7555 Days

If Tech5 has a very big texture stored on disk when the data gets passed from the disk to the rest of the machine, wouldn't the size of the texture increase the loading time for consoles? (360 and PS3) There is also the matter of the disk read speed for this thing. I think Tech5 is more optimized for the PC rather than the consoles. I'm not sure if id is targetting consoles the way Epic does at the moment.

In reply to

Acert93

Since 7547 Days

Posted by wuffyx

If Tech5 has a very big texture stored on disk when the data gets passed from the disk to the rest of the machine, wouldn't the size of the texture increase the loading time for consoles? (360 and PS3) There is also the matter of the disk read speed for this thing. I think Tech5 is more optimized for the PC rather than the consoles. I'm not sure if id is targetting consoles the way Epic does at the moment.

Actually megatextures use less RAM as they can make more efficient use of textures and thus also a lower load time because there are fewer textures to load (it also streams well). Also, id Tech5 is very console conscious--Rage runs at 60fps on both consoles.

In reply to

I am watching YOU.

Inflatable

Since 8214 Days

Posted by Acert93

Also, id Tech5 is very console conscious--Rage runs at 60fps on both consoles.

But seriously, why care? If you want to get the most out of it with the most beautifull graphics available you don't want to play it on a console anyway.. ;)

This is why I keep playing these type of games on the PC and will not switch the console-only gaming.. I get a kick outof being able to play new games with the latest baddass tech when it comes available, not only for 1-2 years every 5-6 years orso when a new high-end console comes out.. By the time this game comes out my current 8800GTS 640MB will have been replaced by something better, that's for sure.. :P

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http://www.cyberwarriors.nl
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wuffyx

Since 7555 Days

Posted by Acert93

Actually megatextures use less RAM as they can make more efficient use of textures and thus also a lower load time because there are fewer textures to load (it also streams well). Also, id Tech5 is very console conscious--Rage runs at 60fps on both consoles.

Thanks for the clarification.

In reply to

Optimusv2

Since 7469 Days

Not that interested in the game, but I am interested in the prospects for the technology used on the game.

In reply to

Hironobu Sakaguchi is coming back to reclaim the throne :)

October 20th 2007 (A good day)

Don't ask any questions just shut up and buy Halo : Ghosts of the Onyx one of the greatest books ever.

pssh! more like electronic gay-ming monthly! amirite

GriftGFX

Since 7576 Days

Posted by Inflatable

But seriously, why care? If you want to get the most out of it with the most beautifull graphics available you don't want to play it on a console anyway.. ;)

This is why I keep playing these type of games on the PC and will not switch the console-only gaming.. I get a kick outof being able to play new games with the latest baddass tech when it comes available, not only for 1-2 years every 5-6 years orso when a new high-end console comes out.. By the time this game comes out my current 8800GTS 640MB will have been replaced by something better, that's for sure.. :P

And yet, give id's very console conscious approach to Rage's design, that 8800GTS would probably be more than enough to drive Rage to reasonable heights. I can't imagine that anyone with a new graphics card (9800GTX+, HD 4870, etc) won't be playing this game @ 60fps + high detail.

In reply to

Inflatable

Since 8214 Days

Posted by PlumbDrumb

PC fanboy alert!

And I won't deny it.. The PC imho is still by far the best allround gamingplatform outthere, hands down.. It's only disadvantages for me are that it's a bit more expensive, and a growing number of developers/publishers prefer consoles to sell their games on because it makes them more money.. Especially that last bit is a shame imho..

The only reason I also own a Xbox 360 is because I can play certain games on it I cannot play on my PC (or only come out way later on PC, and I don't like to wait that long).. Games like PGR, Forza, GoW, and GTA-IV etc.. And I like the way Xbox Live is setup with it's friendslist and matchmaking etc that is accessable whatever you are doing on the system.. But I don't like some of the restrictions of that same Xbox Live though (annoying lowest common denominator policy), and I don't like having to pay for it and MS and others on top of that nickle&diming every little piece of content on it down to the smallest gamerpic..

In reply to

[quote=PlumbDrumb]
PC fanboy alert![/quote]And I won't deny it.. The PC imho is still by far the best allround gamingplatform outthere, hands down.. It's only disadvantages for me are that it's a bit more expensive, and a growing number of developers/publishers prefer consoles to sell their games on because it makes them more money.. Especially that last bit is a shame imho..

The only reason I also own a Xbox 360 is because I can play certain games on it I cannot play on my PC (or only come out way later on PC, and I don't like to wait that long).. Games like PGR, Forza, GoW, and GTA-IV etc.. And I like the way Xbox Live is setup with it's friendslist and matchmaking etc that is accessable whatever you are doing on the system.. But I don't like some of the restrictions of that same Xbox Live though (annoying lowest common denominator policy), and I don't like having to pay for it and MS and others on top of that nickle&diming every little piece of content on it down to the smallest gamerpic..

http://www.cyberwarriors.nl
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GriftGFX

Since 7576 Days

Posted by Inflatable

And I won't deny it.. The PC imho is still by far the best allround gamingplatform outthere, hands down.. It's only disadvantages for me are that it's a bit more expensive, and a growing number of developers/publishers prefer consoles to sell their games on because it makes them more money.. Especially that last bit is a shame imho..

The only reason I also own a Xbox 360 is because I can play certain games on it I cannot play on my PC (or only come out way later on PC, and I don't like to wait that long).. Games like PGR, Forza, GoW, and GTA-IV etc.. And I like the way Xbox Live is setup with it's friendslist and matchmaking etc that is accessable whatever you are doing on the system.. But I don't like some of the restrictions of that same Xbox Live though (annoying lowest common denominator policy), and I don't like having to pay for it and MS and others on top of that nickle&diming every little piece of content on it down to the smallest gamerpic..

I agree, almost universally with those statements.. most people would call me a PC fanboy as well.. and I still think you lay it on thick :P

I don't mind though, someone has to do it, and I certainly don't have the energy.

I enjoy console gaming quite a bit myself, but it's a different experience and even in cases where I do have to wait for the port.. I find myself wishing I had when I don't. I want GTA4 on PC.

PS. I'm playing RAGE and Doom 4 on PC thx.

In reply to

[quote=Inflatable]And I won't deny it.. The PC imho is still by far the best allround gamingplatform outthere, hands down.. It's only disadvantages for me are that it's a bit more expensive, and a growing number of developers/publishers prefer consoles to sell their games on because it makes them more money.. Especially that last bit is a shame imho..

The only reason I also own a Xbox 360 is because I can play certain games on it I cannot play on my PC (or only come out way later on PC, and I don't like to wait that long).. Games like PGR, Forza, GoW, and GTA-IV etc.. And I like the way Xbox Live is setup with it's friendslist and matchmaking etc that is accessable whatever you are doing on the system.. But I don't like some of the restrictions of that same Xbox Live though (annoying lowest common denominator policy), and I don't like having to pay for it and MS and others on top of that nickle&diming every little piece of content on it down to the smallest gamerpic..[/quote]

I agree, almost universally with those statements.. most people would call me a PC fanboy as well.. and I still think you lay it on thick :P

I don't mind though, someone has to do it, and I certainly don't have the energy.

I enjoy console gaming quite a bit myself, but it's a different experience and even in cases where I do have to wait for the port.. I find myself wishing I had when I don't. I want GTA4 on PC.

PS. I'm playing RAGE and Doom 4 on PC thx.

PlumbDrumb

Since 7570 Days

Posted by GriftGFX

I agree, almost universally with those statements.. most people would call me a PC fanboy as well.. and I still think you lay it on thick :P

I don't mind though, someone has to do it, and I certainly don't have the energy.

I enjoy console gaming quite a bit myself, but it's a different experience and even in cases where I do have to wait for the port.. I find myself wishing I had when I don't. I want GTA4 on PC.

PS. I'm playing RAGE and Doom 4 on PC thx.

PC fanboy alert!

In reply to

Phellan_Wolf

Since 6921 Days

Idisagree with you inlfatable, since IMO, the Pc is the worst gaming plateform.
True, it is the only one where uyou can get the best of the best in terms of visaul and qality experience, but overall it is very frusttrating experience. You have to deal witha lot of issues (compatibility and performance mainly) and it is really expensive.
A console it is more user friendly, just put the disc and play, that is the way it should be always.

In reply to

Phaethon360

Since 7422 Days

They're only expensive if you buy them only for games. PCs are all around devices. I agree, they do get to be a serious pain in the ass when they get to be older, or even when the equipment is extremely knew. But when you get in that sweet spot of new and tested, it's a pretty solid experience. Problem is the learning curve of recognizing when that time is is steep. That's why we need PC fanboys to make life for the regular people more bearable.

Even still, the price on good equipment has gone down a lot. You can build a great PC for under $1k. And I can't believe I just defended PC gaming. I need to take a shower to wash the stench of it off.

In reply to

Don't you know who I am? I'm the goddamned Banman.

Jollipop

Since 7459 Days

Posted by Inflatable

The PC imho is still by far the best allround gamingplatform..

Lies, if that were the case everyone would be playing their games on a PC, oh whats that I hear not everyone can afford the upgrades well that doesn't matter even a low end PC is a better gaming platform supposedly.

I don't discount the PC, if there is a game that I want and it plays and looks better on my PC then I will obviously go that route, but saying PC is a better gaming platform is just ridiculous the lack of diversity alone makes that not true.

In reply to

Marumaro for the WIN !!

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