Project Natal

Since 7335 Days

Posted by TheFuriousOne

It did it because they love it we would have Shenmue 3 :(

Good post Viginti_Tres

You can do something you love, but you still have to be realistic. I would love Shenmue 3, but if they can't sell enough of them, it would hurt future development, or downright drive them out of buisness and they wouldn't be able to make ANY games. Shenmue 3 would not be cheap to make. Serving fans is one thing, losing your job is another...

In reply to

Oooh, Profound, isn't it?

ManThatYouFear

Since 7519 Days

this may be on topic not quite sure, but i assume this "thing" is MS answer to Nintys ability to print gold right ?

Well i just bought the misses a Wii at last i will be able to play galaxy and zelda (yey) but wow... god , its fucking awfull so far, not sold on this motion crap i know its crap on the PS3 and rather dull/pointless but i thought the wii would of been better due to it been nintendo but jesus....

Hopefully galaxy will change my stance but so far if it was for me, i would feel robbed but the misses is enjoying it and thats all that matters.

In reply to

I think i have stood in poo

Jollipop

Since 7459 Days

Posted by Optimusv2

The processing being handled on the 360 also ensures it will be a much more affordable product than would be the case otherwise had Natal kept it's own type of processing unit.

Either way 10-15% of the Xenon seems like a lot, I don't expect to see AAA titles using this tech, at least til it hits the next console.

Posted by dcdelgado

Plus there is so little solid info out there, that all these doom and gloom assumptions make me laugh!

There is a fair bit of solid info around, especially over at B3D etc, I just think a lot of people are waiting for MS to fall short and end up on their asses.

If it does turn out good and works as suggested then they still need to get people to buy this addon, something no console manufactuer has really been sucessful with.

In reply to

Marumaro for the WIN !!

Optimusv2

Since 7468 Days

I'm not entirely convinced that 10-15% is as much as many are making it out to be.

For one, given a great engine design, you can still have a very good looking game while making use of Natal. If it said something like 30-50% of the console's CPU, then that would be another story entirely. But even if Natal used 50% of the 360 CPU, it would still be capable of producing games that looked far and away better than anything on the Wii, that much I'm sure.

I bet if they packaged it with Halo Reach, it would be successful :)

In reply to

Halo Reach using 360 tesselation unit extensively.

Hironobu Sakaguchi is coming back to reclaim the throne :)

Seeing it in motion on your HDTV, will blow your mind!!

Don't ask any questions just shut up and buy Halo : Ghosts of the Onyx one of th

Jollipop

Since 7459 Days

If they package it with Halo Reach then it will increase the price of the game, if they package it for free then where is the point in that ?

In reply to

Marumaro for the WIN !!

Optimusv2

Since 7468 Days

Posted by Jollipop

If they package it with Halo Reach then it will increase the price of the game, if they package it for free then where is the point in that ?

Being able to say that Natal's launch was a massive success and not actually be entirely lying. It can piggy back Reach's success. If Microsoft is taking Natal as serious as a console launch, then I say they prove it right? Go old school and include it with a big game. Reach is the game, and Natal is our console, go go.

Thy should be willing to bite whatever financial bullet there may be just to be able to say that Natal will easily achieve penetration of upwards to 5 million in like 2 months time, if every copy of Reach has the Natal equipment, and is at the same price.

Hell, even if they make the game $70 it will STILL sell millions on release.

In reply to

Halo Reach using 360 tesselation unit extensively.

Hironobu Sakaguchi is coming back to reclaim the throne :)

Seeing it in motion on your HDTV, will blow your mind!!

Don't ask any questions just shut up and buy Halo : Ghosts of the Onyx one of th

Jollipop

Since 7459 Days

Ahh silly me, I thought MS wanted to make money from Natal.

Of course I can see it being bundled with software but it will more like be some kind of Wii type game.

In reply to

Marumaro for the WIN !!

GriftGFX

Since 7576 Days

Posted by Jollipop

Of course I can see it being bundled with software but it will more like be some kind of Wii type game.

Naturally, since that's the market they're trying to tap.

In reply to

GrimThorne

Since 7448 Days

Posted by Optimusv2

I'm not entirely convinced that 10-15% is as much as many are making it out to be.

Alex Kipman has all but confirmed the 10-15%. But that 10-15% is nothing to be concerned about. It may or may not surprise you to know that most console games don't even approach 70% CPU utilization.

Neither Halo Reach, Alan Wake or Fable 3 are going to be utilizing the Xenon's 3 cores at 100%. Now if we were talking about a 10-15% performance hit on Xenos or the 360's memory, THAT would be a noticeable performance drop that would certainly effect gameplay.

So no worries about a meager 10-15% that was never going to be used by developers anyway.

In reply to

deftangel

Since 7444 Days

Regardless of whether most games reach 70% CPU utilisation, they certainly aren't optimised to give up an extra 10-15% either. It's not just sitting there waiting to be used. There is no chance of this being ported back to older games.

What this means is developers will have to make a decision as to whether they are going to incorporate Natal in any meaningful way at the start. 10-15% CPU time is not trivial in game development. It's a good thing in the long run because Natal implementations will not be half baked. It'll either be in properly, or not at all.

If you read anything in to how Bungie work, they typically set resource budgets early on (i.e. AI gets XX % of the CPU) thus I think it's highly unlikely Reach will support Natal because I couldn't see them giving up the CPU time at this stage of development.

Talking about Natal as an add-on kinda misses the point. Microsoft have developed this as an attempt to get people who would not normally buy a games console / play games to buy an Xbox. Their target market will not be people buying it as an add on, they're going after people who don't have an Xbox full stop. That's why it needs to be cost effective so they can release some sort of bundle Natal console at $199.

That doesn't people won't buy it as an add on of course, but that's a secondary business.

In reply to

Regardless of whether most games reach 70% CPU utilisation, they certainly aren't optimised to give up an extra 10-15% either. It's not just sitting there waiting to be used. There is no chance of this being ported back to older games.

What this means is developers will have to make a decision as to whether they are going to incorporate Natal in any meaningful way at the start. 10-15% CPU time is not trivial in game development. It's a good thing in the long run because Natal implementations will not be half baked. It'll either be in properly, or not at all.

If you read anything in to how Bungie work, they typically set resource budgets early on (i.e. AI gets XX % of the CPU) thus I think it's highly unlikely Reach will support Natal because I couldn't see them giving up the CPU time at this stage of development.

Talking about Natal as an add-on kinda misses the point. Microsoft have developed this as an attempt to get people who would not normally buy a games console / play games to buy an Xbox. Their target market will not be people buying it as an add on, they're going after people who don't have an Xbox full stop. That's why it needs to be cost effective so they can release some sort of bundle Natal console at $199.

That doesn't people won't buy it as an add on of course, but that's a secondary business.

XBL/PSN: deftangel. Views are my own and not representative of my employers. Boulets aren't the end of the world, you will get over them! Reading and constructive discussion classes are available, enquire via PM

alimokrane

Since 7506 Days

Clearly with this Natal CPU business, MS isnt planning on having the 360 for much longer, the next console is coming in the next 2 years for sure.

Natal will give the impression that they give a damn about motion control but the truth is, the real Natal is probably what we will see in the next console. They tried to cut the cost as much as possible with this one just so as to have something to compete with.

Natal 2.0 which would come with the next console is probably the real deal.

In my case, however, I dont give a rat's a** about this motion control business. I love me some controllers.

In reply to

Viginti_Tres

Since 7078 Days

Posted by deftangel

What this means is developers will have to make a decision as to whether they are going to incorporate Natal in any meaningful way at the start. 10-15% CPU time is not trivial in game development. It's a good thing in the long run because Natal implementations will not be half baked. It'll either be in properly, or not at all.

It's not just the CPU. The algorithm will use up some of the precious memory, rumour says it's about 50mb. And then it also has to take a chunk of the bandwidth. How much and how it will translate to games is pure speculation, but it will have some form of impact on development and games.

The normal motion sensing software of today (e.g. in Hollywood) needs a powerful system dedicated to it in order to process movement in 3D space. MS said that the "magic" is happening within the powerful algorithm, but the hardware is not capable of doing magic feats.

MS should make clear that Natal in the form it is released later this year is going to be compatible on their next Box. I doubt they'll do it, what I don't get is why so few people are suspicious. Every article I read about this is entirely positive, is this how gaming journalism works? No wonder gaming is frowned upon as immature.

In reply to

[quote=deftangel]What this means is developers will have to make a decision as to whether they are going to incorporate Natal in any meaningful way at the start. 10-15% CPU time is not trivial in game development. It's a good thing in the long run because Natal implementations will not be half baked. It'll either be in properly, or not at all.[/quote]

It's not just the CPU. The algorithm will use up some of the precious memory, rumour says it's about 50mb. And then it also has to take a chunk of the bandwidth. How much and how it will translate to games is pure speculation, but it will have some form of impact on development and games.

The normal motion sensing software of today (e.g. in Hollywood) needs a powerful system dedicated to it in order to process movement in 3D space. MS said that the "magic" is happening within the powerful algorithm, but the hardware is not capable of doing magic feats.

MS should make clear that Natal in the form it is released later this year is going to be compatible on their next Box. I doubt they'll do it, what I don't get is why so few people are suspicious. Every article I read about this is entirely positive, is this how gaming journalism works? No wonder gaming is frowned upon as immature.

dcdelgado

Since 7436 Days

Posted by deftangel

Talking about Natal as an add-on kinda misses the point. Microsoft have developed this as an attempt to get people who would not normally buy a games console / play games to buy an Xbox. Their target market will not be people buying it as an add on, they're going after people who don't have an Xbox full stop. That's why it needs to be cost effective so they can release some sort of bundle Natal console at $199.

That doesn't people won't buy it as an add on of course, but that's a secondary business.

Exactly!

Natal is NOT being bulit for the Hardcore AAA games or Gamers so the CPU/Algorithm usage wont make the slightest difference, will some AAA games make use of Natal in the future, in certain sections of a game? hell yeah (Fable 3) but resource allocation will be the least of the devs worries. No matter what you may think Natal is strictly aimed at the casual market and getting them to pick up a 360 console instead of the Wii is all MS are aiming for, will they succeed who knows?.

In reply to

[quote=deftangel]
Talking about Natal as an add-on kinda misses the point. Microsoft have developed this as an attempt to get people who would not normally buy a games console / play games to buy an Xbox. Their target market will not be people buying it as an add on, they're going after people who don't have an Xbox full stop. That's why it needs to be cost effective so they can release some sort of bundle Natal console at $199.

That doesn't people won't buy it as an add on of course, but that's a secondary business.[/quote]

Exactly!

Natal is NOT being bulit for the Hardcore AAA games or Gamers so the CPU/Algorithm usage wont make the slightest difference, will some AAA games make use of Natal in the future, in certain sections of a game? hell yeah (Fable 3) but resource allocation will be the least of the devs worries. No matter what you may think Natal is strictly aimed at the casual market and getting them to pick up a 360 console instead of the Wii is all MS are aiming for, will they succeed who knows?.

** Yes We CAN!! **

BLackHawkodst

Since 6462 Days

They could very well succeed, the Wii family games are naff, so if MS and all the publishers can bring some quality to the table, ireally think it could spearhead some great sales.

In reply to

Prepare To Drop!!

Jollipop

Since 7459 Days

Saying that this kind of tech is aimined at non-gamers is a bit naive to be honest, the thing is that there is a genuine intrest from hardcore (or whatever you want to call em) gamers for motion input in games, sure we don't want everything to happen with the flick of the wrist but having sections of a game with motion sensing controls could be quite immersive if done correctly.

MS shouldn't be mind bent on going after the casual gamer in my opinion, its a bit late for that if you ask me, they should be trying to futher this technology for their exsisting user base.

Thing is most people who want the type of game experience seen on the Wii already own a Wii and if they don't they are a lot more likely to pick one over a 360 because of the quirky looking titles anyway, yes they are naff but thats part of the appeal for non-gamers.

I think Alimo nailed it on the head, this is just a way to make back some money on the R&D they have spent, we will no doubt see a much better version on the next Xbox whenever that comes about.

In reply to

Saying that this kind of tech is aimined at non-gamers is a bit naive to be honest, the thing is that there is a genuine intrest from hardcore (or whatever you want to call em) gamers for motion input in games, sure we don't want everything to happen with the flick of the wrist but having sections of a game with motion sensing controls could be quite immersive [b]if[/b] done correctly.

MS shouldn't be mind bent on going after the casual gamer in my opinion, its a bit late for that if you ask me, they should be trying to futher this technology for their exsisting user base.

Thing is most people who want the type of game experience seen on the Wii already own a Wii and if they don't they are a lot more likely to pick one over a 360 because of the quirky looking titles anyway, yes they are naff but thats part of the appeal for non-gamers.

I think Alimo nailed it on the head, this is just a way to make back some money on the R&D they have spent, we will no doubt see a much better version on the next Xbox whenever that comes about.

Marumaro for the WIN !!

Megido

Since 6901 Days

Jolli: are you crazy? Why would they go after the people that already own their system? For MS the casual market is largely untapped and not even attempting to get a piece of the action would just be stupid. Some of the Halo and CoD lovers out there might buy the Natal but the real sales for it will be the same people that thought the wii was awesome, ie not your average "hardcore" gamer but casual and non gamers.

I totally agree with the idea of holding natal back to the next release instead. Makes sense to launch it as a new console when you don't have to directly compete with the wii. I think a new generation of hardware makes people more open for a new piece of hardware.

In reply to

Take a bath!? Get a bike!

Optimusv2

Since 7468 Days

I think Microsoft needs to use Natal to go after hardcores. Make it credible in their eyes and sooner or later all the "me too" casuals will be foaming at the mouth to get onboard and see what all the fuss is about.

Microsoft doesn't need to go after casuals in the same fashion that some others have attempted. They can do it in an entirely new way. Natal already has serious buzz. Make it credible with hardcores. Blatantly going after casual gamers is going to fall flat on it's face.

In reply to

Halo Reach using 360 tesselation unit extensively.

Hironobu Sakaguchi is coming back to reclaim the throne :)

Seeing it in motion on your HDTV, will blow your mind!!

Don't ask any questions just shut up and buy Halo : Ghosts of the Onyx one of th

Jollipop

Since 7459 Days

It's not just about going after the people that already own the system its about devloping your platform for your exsisting userbase, evolving the system into something better.

Spending R&D on a concept that is guna clearly fall on its face is not good for anyone, MS aren't guna appeal to the Wii crowd unless they change their whole philosophy on gaming and thats not good for their exsisting user base.

Of course looking at it from a different point of view such as providing a stable casual userbase for when they make the switch to the next gen of consoles is no bad thing.

In reply to

Marumaro for the WIN !!

Megido

Since 6901 Days

No, i don't think the natal has especially much selling potential among MS current core audience for the 360. The goal of Natal is to sell the 360 to people that don't have it because just getting their current user base to pick up a Natal is small potatoes by comparison. natal sure does generate buzz among us gamers but i don't think that my less interested friends even know about it tbh. MS will probably market it fiercely closer to release as a new accessible way to play easy games for anyone. And i think they will suck in part of nintendo's current user base, especially in time, since they have a stronger third party support.

MS neither needs, intends or will market the Natal to their current core audience if you ask me, MS already has our money. The natal is meant to expand the audience, not sell peripherals to current users. I could possibly imagine that they hope it will extend the lifespan of the 360 as well, but that's about it.

In reply to

Take a bath!? Get a bike!

Ronsauce

Since 7561 Days

Posted by Megido

MS neither needs, intends or will market the Natal to their current core audience if you ask me, MS already has our money. The natal is meant to expand the audience, not sell peripherals to current users. I could possibly imagine that they hope it will extend the lifespan of the 360 as well, but that's about it.

Yeah, I pretty much agree with all of this.

In reply to

Zapp Brannigan: If we can hit that bull's-eye, the rest of the dominoes will fall like a house of cards...Checkmate.

dcdelgado

Since 7436 Days

Please! MS goal with Natal is to shift consoles to the Casual gamer and anyone who cant see that is Blind, would they also want to entice the current gamer into the fold of course they would, but as def said that is a secondary objective.

In reply to

** Yes We CAN!! **

Jollipop

Since 7459 Days

Posted by dcdelgado

Please! MS goal with Natal is to shift consoles to the Casual gamer..

Well I think thats kind of obvious.

My point is that I dont think its guna work, sure they may get the odd few, but the majority will still flock to the Wii.

In reply to

Marumaro for the WIN !!

GriftGFX

Since 7576 Days

Posted by Optimusv2

I think Microsoft needs to use Natal to go after hardcores.

That would be silly, since it would flop in that demographic.

In reply to

dcdelgado

Since 7436 Days

Maybe but if out of 100 possible Wii buyers, 30 opt for Natal instead, MS will be very happy indeed.

In reply to

** Yes We CAN!! **

GriftGFX

Since 7576 Days

That's a pretty bold estimate.

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