Indeed it is, but if Natal ends up the same price or cheaper than the wii with more appealing casual/family games without the need for a controller, plus a BIG MS marketing blitz anything is possible.

Natal............unjustified hype I think. The only things we've seen "working" on it were simply ridiculously boring. Someone mentioned leaning on FPS, I say hell NO. There is no way I'd be leaning my entire body instead of pressing a button. How is that less ridiculous than pressing just one more button? In fact, how is that going to work? The answer is it won't work. At what point would the game consider any body movement enough to be considered a lean for example?

I think that unless they create a game around the thing, it won't work. Everything else will simply be a huge gimmick and a waste of resources apparently (now with the talks of 15% of xenon usage). I still feel retarded having to shake the controller in MGS4, something they implemented just *because*...

It is also a fact that 90%+ of Wii games are absolutely trash as well. Developers just try to come up with silly ways to make use of the technology and make some cash. They take an attitude of "let's take advantage of the Wii casuals", instead of a "I have this great idea for a game, let's see in which console it works best". I can see this happening with Natal, it might just affect the image of the xbox.

Anyways, that's the way I see it.

I didn't say they would reach 70%, I said that most games don't even approach 70% utilization. Games typically hover around 50-60% of utilization, single core and most if not all game data (AI, Physics etc) on one or two threads. It really isn't going to pose a problem as most devs have figured out how to get what they want out of the 360 using just one core.

How existing titles and new titles will perform with Natal is a question I can't answer, but 10-15% of CPU usage shouldn't stand in the way of any developer that really wants to make a quality game with it. It comes down to the talent that's in the studio and just how dedicated they are to creating a HQ game.So nons and casuals are going to run out and spend $199 for Natal? Seriously it starting to look like Microsoft may have shot themselves in the foot with this thing.

If it's bundled with an arcade console they just might. Have you seen the Wii numbers? It seems like these kind of things are a casual magnet.

I still say best bet is for MS to bite the bullet initially and bundle the thing with Reach, even if Reach as of launch isn't designed for it.

Reach + Natal $60. They want it to be as big as a console launch? Last I checked, companies were more than willing to take losses during console launches. Funniest part is that there may not be that much of a loss because Reach will cushion whatever blow there may be. It's going to sell and sell big.

Optimus:Okay, let's go over this one more time. Natal is for CASUALS and NON GAMERS. Bundling it with a halo title wouldn't bring the Natal to the people they want to attract with it. Natal is MS responding to the casual success of the wii, the faster you realize that the better.

Maybe if he says it enough times it will come true ...... perhaps not though.

i agree, although i honestly dont see how MS are going to do that when ultimately natal is just an aditional paripheral, just like sony's wand is. you can't compete with nintendo's Wii and look to take some of that casual cake with some randomly released "add-on", it needs to be integral to the use of the console itself, it needs to BE the console, just like the Wii is.

so looking at it like that, Opimus' idea would probably work out better for MS, i think they'd sell way more bundling it with halo, then they would trying to persuade Wii owners/ non-gamers that natal is a must own peice of tech.

Why would you want a game like Halo to have natal support anyway? I seriously doubt it'd add anything but gimmicky crap.

On a side note Dokuro is pretty funny.

All they need to do is bundle it with the Arcade version of the 360, sell it at a reasonable price and shove it in the face of the public. Showing it at E3 and TGS or wahtever doesn't cut it. I think if they bundle it and just market it right they will steal market shares from nintendo. I'm not saying that they will take huge shares but they will start moving in on nintendos territory. As mentioned earlier i think it sounds likely this being a warm-up for their next console, that will probably incorporate the natal tech straight out of the box.

Okay, I'm going to just go with the flow on this. I don't know what's going to happen but I hope Microsoft will remember us core gamers if Natal blows up into a huge commercial success for them.

$199 doesn't seem like a casual price point but if Microsoft can get the nons and casuals to play games like "Natal- Dancing with the Stars" then it probably will work out well for them.

and that is honestly the only way i can see them even coming close to succeeding with natal, otherwise it's no more of a must own peice of tech then the HD drive was, or the vision camera etc. the Wii has made a huge name for itself (how i dont know) and i find it hard to beleive anyone could move into that territoty and do well for themselves. if anyone walks into a store looking for a novelty motion controled gaming console, the Wii is the one most are going to go for since it's a tried and true console. in the same way most would pick up an Ipod when looking for an MP3 player.

the way i see it, is natal isnt going to be anymore popular or accepted then the playstation eye was. sure it's going to offer novelty value for people who already own a 360 (much like the vision camera), but i dont see people flooding the streets to buy it. same goes for the PS wand or whatever it's going to be called. sure the tech might be cool, sure the possibilities are there and the novelty value just as strong as the Wii, but the Wii has brand recognition on it's side, the WORLD knows about it, and more importantly, knows that it's the diminating force when it comes to motion based gaming. it's going to be hard, if not impossible to put a dent in that.

I don't understand why a lot of people don't get it (unless they never played a Wii with friends). The concept of the Wii is ingenious, everyone can pick it up and play. The games are simple and fun, you can play it with nongamer friends and you're not required to give them instructions because it's intuitive. It's instantly fun and there is a very small learning curve if any at all.

MS needs to address these points if they want to have any success with Natal. Otherwise it'll become the new Vision Cam, like korndog said.

Thats what people said about the xbox and look what happened there!, it will be very interesting to see how this all pans out.

Better to have Natal start out as a monster sales success then worry about the other details LATER.

This is the best possible business move for Microsoft. Natal isn't going to take off in the way Microsoft wishes otherwise. If Natal is as important as they want everyone to believe, they have to do something risky. Bundling with Reach at no extra cost is the way to be able to claim that Natal had a monster launch.

Just answer me this: Will Natal be anywhere nearly as successful initially or in the future, UNLESS Microsoft does something completely huge and unexpected like bundling it at no extra cost with Reach? There is simply no other way because we all know the likelihood of any Natal killer apps showing up are super slim, and I do mean slim.

Even if Reach's initial success is a complete falsehood and it's simply riding the coat tails of Reach, it's much better than it simply not going anywhere. I don't think Microsoft wants to see Natal go the way of the 360 HD-DVD add-on.

Optimus you seem to think that attach rate = sucess, if they bundle Natal with Reach and only handful are even remotely interested in the product its a waste of time.

Losing money to get Natal into homes isn't a wise move, nor is having a couple gimmick's programmed into Reach, it's not guna impress anyone and will actually do more harm to the product than good.

This is why I think it would be best for them to wait for the next Xbox and bundle it with every console to make it standard, plus they can refine the tech and perhaps make some kind of head tracking which i'm sure would be quite sucessful in FPS.

There are many that will simply hold on to it to see if it in any way ends up proving itself as worth having. No doubt some will throw theirs on ebay, but not everyone will. Some will hang onto to it to see if it becomes useful, especially since they got the thing for little to nothing by buying a copy of Reach.

I don't necessarily look at attach rate as success, but do you guys honestly believe that Natal is going to end up being the kind of sales success that Microsoft wants it to be, unless they do something really big like this?

Bundling Natal with Reach will NOT ensure Natal's long term success, but I can sure as heck sit here and guarantee to you all now that Natal has absolutely no better path to real potential success than the path I've laid out by bundling it with Reach. Even if Reach doesn't take advantage of Natal's capabilities, Microsoft will probably ensure that some type of minor 360 dashboard control gimmick is in place to partially make people think it's cool or useful, until whatever killer apps or fairly good titles for it, if any, actual see the light of day.

Even if some internal Microsoft team or random third party out there was to create the most amazing Natal Killer App that we could possibly think of right now, it would still not lead Natal to the kind of success worthy of what Microsoft is building it up to be. They are marketing this thing as the next xbox practically, saying it will extend the life of the 360. I'm probably beating a dead horse at this point, but there's nothing in all of Microsoft's entire potential arsenal of videogame software that can do for Natal what a Halo Reach bundle can do for it.

Another potential way to look at it, is that Microsoft fully expects some Natal titles to be available as of it's launch this year, and even if Reach itself won't necessarily support it, there will at least be a pretty healthy starter market of individuals who actually Natal when those Natal titles actually start see release, and that will have all been thanks to the ingenious move of bundling Natal with Reach.

It's in nobody elses best interest besides Microsoft's own for a decent market of people who own Natal to be out there and a potential market for Natal titles. If Microsoft doesn't do something big on their end to ensure that Natal titles actually have a real chance at success. Tell me how exactly is Microsoft suppose to do that to any significant degree, unless they bundle it with Reach?

Microsoft has no other title in their arsenal that will push adoption and sales the way Reach will, even if Natal's initial success is a bogus inflation thanks to Reach. Again, it's in Microsoft's best interest and nobody elses to make this thing a success, just as it was mostly up to nintendo to make sure the wii mote and the wii itself was a success.

Very well said deft. I know that a bundling of Natal with Reach likely wouldn't lead to many new customers, but just the simple thought of being able to say, "x many units of natal have been sold" would go a ways towards making developers feel as if it could be worthwhile to truly try to develop something special to take advantage of it.

My plan wouldn't necessarily have to imply that every person that purchases Reach and also just happens to get Natal because it was bundled with the game will want to keep it, but I suspect very strongly that the semantics wouldn't very much matter. It would still be x million units of Natal sold and in the hands of consumers, which my opinion leads me to suggest could be a very event that may need to occur in order for Natal to truly take off and perhaps get the attention of that new market that Microsoft is after.

The media practically went gaga over Natal when it was announced and there is some generally positive buzz out there. The media will talk about Natal's launch and they'll be talking about how well it managed to sell, which may then produce a sorta "me too" fad where others try to go out there and see what all the fuss may be about, not unlike what took place with the Wii. Also keep in mind that there should surely be some titles available as of Natal's launch. However, even if what I suspect may happen doesn't exactly happen, I just don't know if there is any possible better out of the gate option available for Natal other than including it with Reach. Unless some truly monster title appears that is enough to even outperform the kinds of initial sales it would get from being bundled with Reach, then I don't see a path for Natal yet.

Time will tell, however.

How does giving something away equate to it being sold ?

It's still in the hands of consumers. It doesn't really matter how it got there. It would basically be giving it away on Microsoft's part, you're right about that, but the reality of the situation is that consumers got their hands on Natal by purchasing a copy of Halo Reach. Simply because that person ended up getting Natal primarily because it came packaged for free with Reach doesn't take away from the fact that Natal just made its way into a consumer's possession as a direct result of a financial transaction. It ultimately counts as a sale no matter which way we view it, if you think about it. Would it be a sale for the right reasons? Absolutely not, it wouldn't be.

Hell, you know how many bought Crackdown primarily because they had a chance to play the Halo 3 beta? I Know the Halo 3 beta is the only reason I and many other people I know personally bought that piece of crap. I know Crackdown has its fans, but it'll always be crap in my eyes.

Take, for example, how early on in the Wii's life, I believe Wii Sports being bundled with an extra nunchuk or something like that directly led to Wii Sports receiving many many extra sales. It was an opportunity for a lot of people to get themselves an extra wii mote or nunchuk, or whatever it was that was bundled, and it sold because of that. Only in Natal's case, it would be because of Reach that it's selling as much as it is. The details don't really matter. It basically comes down to how serious really are Microsoft taking Natal when they say things like they are treating it like an all new console launch. If they truly are, I say prove it -- basically give Natal away at no extra cost.

Halo Reach is one of few titles that will have the kind of weight behind it to probably ensure that Microsoft's Entertainment division still ends up in the black when all is said and done. If there ever was a time to give Natal a major push, Reach is surely it, even if a lot of Natal's supposed "success" was complete smoke and mirrors. I understand where you guys are coming from, but I'm trying to find a possible reason for why Microsoft would be as bullish about Natal's success as they apparently seem to be.

Do they have some monster line-up of killer apps coming for Natal that we don't know about? Because that's the only way I can see Natal's launch not going the way of the HD-DVD add on or Sega CD.