Lastly, conventional wisdom of most out there, at least from what I see most commonly online, is that the PS3 is stronger than the Xbox 360. Does any of that matter now, and has it mattered for the last couple of years? It really hasn't.

Microsoft are anything but stupid, although there are times when you wonder, they will not put out a console that is, in anyway, significantly behind their competition. When we see the games, all this spec stuff will slowly and over time go right out the window where it belongs :)

Damage control or the facts, Grift? You really believe we can judge anything with certainty about either of these consoles based on the leaked specs? Really? The PS3's leaked specs trounced the 360's, unless people have forgotten. Most people, even now, believe the PS3 is much stronger than the 360.

Cell and all its SPEs
A gpu with a faster clock speed.
R ram, which was faster than Microsoft's GDDR3.
Blu Ray over DVD.
Remember the Cells flop counts?

How these consoles do things, how they try to hide latencies, how they try to offer any additional specialized or helper hardware, it will ALL matter perhaps more than simply looking at who has the higher numbers.. :) I don't need to damage control, because I will almost certainly have all the new consoles, Wii-U included. I'm just saying that it makes very little sense to prejudge any of these machines too early before we actually know all the official details. Make no mistake, we absolutely do not know everything about these machines based on the leaks. You ever notice how when it comes to leaks on both these machines, there is far more known about the PS4 than the new xbox? Far less is known about the xbox gpu, for example. And don't think for a second that the leaked on flops counts tell the entire story, because there's no way that's true.

MS are plenty stupid, they blew a 1 year head start and a 10m console lead, they lost traction the further they went into the generation. The american market gets better value and are more forgiving of being reamed for money, europe isnt, neither is japan. They blew all their goodwill on a motion controller that was always a path to a dead end, even nintendo sees that and they pioneered the concept. They destroyed rare and seem to be happy enough being the also rans in the console market rather than taking it by the scruff of the neck and using their cash to earn the consumer.

As for the PS3 vs 360, the ps3 was marginally stronger, but it had flaws in a weaker gpu and less ram due to bigger OS footprint and separate pools for gpu and cpu. It was massively complex with poor documentation, they have learnt their lesson. PS4 for all intents and purposes could be built today off the shelf and programmed on by anyone, it is vastly simpler and has none of the failures of the ps3. It is more powerful on paper and due to its simplicity that power can be easily exploited.
MS on the other hand at the VERY best IF the rumours about 2 gpus are correct and the DME's help close the on paper performance gulf it is STILL massively complex compared to both its predecessor and its rivals. At worst if what is on paper is what we get it is midway between the wiiU and the ps4 which is a HUGE gulf. You have a weaker system that is more complex regardless of how good the tools are and the games will be compromised as a result.

Of course there may be miltiple SKU's, maybe some of the rumours point to a low powered SKU which is what we've seen then the main SKU has more juice. With a pc architecture its possible, perhaps 1 sky is designed for 1080p60 and the other for 720p30 which I could live with but that is one hell of an if.

The same devs have said when it comes to real games the difference will be slight so no doom and gloom...

lol everyone in this thread is doing that.

Dunno about that, the PS4 leaks seem to be on the nose, the 720 leaks are certainly viable, the devs have had their say and are largely sounding in unison that the ps4 is easier to work with and more powerful. Sometimes 1+1=2 and you just gotta admit it.
I would wish the 720 was the more powerful console, I did 80% of my console gaming on the 360 but I'm not gonna pretend that the leaked specs are in any way encouraging and the MS brand is infinitely easier to drop than any other as they have no loyalty to the consumer to begin with.

They def screwed rare. I won't disagree there. Rare could have put out so much better quality stuff this gen. I still love Viva Pinata, though, and kameo was a nice launch title. I just wish we got more of that stuff.

You are underestimating Microsoft's ability to make a developer's job easier. Microsoft has always had excellent developer support and tools. I don't expect that to change in any shape or form. You are assuming Sony has learned all their lessons, but are you really sure about that? You seem to be making a lot of assumptions on the lessons sony as learned, when history tells us different.

And whoa on that one... You think the new xbox is going to have any chance of being MIDway between the Wii-U and the PS4? Are you out of your mind.... Even if every single leaked spec is dead on, and nothing unique that either of these consoles do will change the performance outcome, the new xbox still nowhere close to midway between the Wii and PS4.

These two machines are more than likely going to be a total wash in the power department. There's a reason why insiders say that the power of both dev kits are practically identical. When all is said and done, these two machines will be more or less equals in the power department with slight advantages going to either side. Insiders have said the new xbox pushes more triangles/vertices than the new Playstation. Maybe that's true, maybe it's complete nonsense, but it's what has been said by people that are responsible for providing some of the seemingly accurate leaks we have now. Will each have their specific advantages that will show up in exclusives, or in some rare instances, third party titles? Absolutely, but you are setting yourself up to be disappointed if you believe there's any chance whatsoever the PS4 is going to be, by any significant margin, stronger than the new xbox. Stop and consider this for a moment.

1.8 tflops was the officially released flops performance count for the PS3's RSX graphics chip. That 1.8tflops is now, again, the released flops count for the new PS4 gpu. In fairness, there's a greater chance of it being true this time, however, but you have to find this very funny :)

What was the released flops number for the 360 GPU, which we know to be better than RSX? 240Gflops. Much less than that released 1.8tflops for RSX. Is there any chance that both Microsoft and sony are playing games with these flop counts again, as they did before, but perhaps Sony was more guilty? You remember how both 360 and PS3 were suppose to be beyond 1 teraflops and they were supercomputers? Sony's advertised resolution for PS3 was 2 1080p full HD outputs at one point....

But if you go by the latest rumors, yes the ps4 will be slightly more powerful but with the multiplat games you will see next to no difference, just like the ps3/360.

@Grift:

In truth all the confs from each console have been just as shit as each other.

There may be a a chance yes, but equally if MS give the devs the same excellent software tools\support for the new xbox as they did for the 360, then nothing may change.

Optimus, if theyre using vastly similar chips, exact same clockrates then there isnt as much room for random variance and made up flops numbers. What we instead get are 18 (14+4) vs 12 Cu's which is a huge gulf no matter which way you swing it even if you go with the 14 vs 12 its still a 15% gap. Then theres the RAM, 8gb-3gb so 5gb@68GB/s vs 4-0.5so 3.5@172GB/s thats a huge gulf in how much RAM can be accessed per frame, even if the latencies and ESRAM close that gap a bit there is still quite a gap, the 1.5 extra durango has could no doubt be useful but the speed of orbis largely cancels that out. CPU it would be a wash but if rumours are true the 720 eats 2 of the 8 cores just for the OS, thats 25% right out of the gate.

You're talking 15-20% difference between the two machines, for some devs they might say they can live with that, but thats a BIIIIG gap, thats your 30fps vs 60fps, 1080p vs 720p or whatever way you wanna allocate that extra grunt.

EDIT: Also kameo was criminally left to rot, it made me say WOW when the 360 launched. Wish they would go back to it. But then most of the IP's were left to rot.

Sounds similar to the first ps3 vs 360 debates, with the ps3 9 cpu threads vs the 360 6 threads, at the end of the day until we have upto date concrete facts, i'll go with what the devs are spouting and at the moment, and that's the ps4 is more powerful but in real terms you will see a slight difference.

At the end of the day, you buy a console mainly because of the exclusives...
I bought the 360 because of the many differnt games it offered at the beginning.

I expect the Xbox3 to be weaker than the PS4, which drags me to Sony's machine this time around. But this gen I only had the Xbox and after 7 years of not having played any Sony game seriously, I dont really care about their recent IPs. And I have grown tired of most of the IPs MS has left...

Right now, I hope they show some really fresh stuff on the new consoles. If (especially) MS and Sony keep releasing current games with better gfx and the number raised by one at the end of the title, I might end up not buying any new console...

MS brand is infinitely easier to drop than any other? I disagree. I think they are all pretty damn easy to drop, and this past gen proved it for a fact with the way I think the playstation brand was exposed. Simply because Microsoft had gotten games like GTA and a few others to come to their machine day and date with their ps3 counterparts, the Xbox 360 easily became the defacto US console, stripping off a great deal of that armor that sony believed they had with the playstation brand.

I don't think for a second there's any kind of true loyalty to the playstation brand, or to the xbox brand, for that matter. I think the loyalty lies with the games and the games only. I respect loyalty to a developer and loyalty to a game franchise, but I don't think people should mistake that loyalty to mean they have a loyalty to the console brand those games are released on. You would just as quickly jump ship if you thought for a second you were no longer going to see naughty dog games on the playstation. The reason why the Xbox 360 is such a success now is because, as Microsoft suspected, if you manage to take some key third party games from Sony, or get equal treatment with certain big franchises, the playstation brand will be revealed for what it is, a popular brand, but no unstoppable juggernaut as the ps2 and ps1 truly made it seem to be. Sony has always had great first parties, but the glossed over secret of their success was third parties. Metal Gear Solid, Final Fantasy, Dragon Quest, GTA, Tekken, Kingdom Hearts 1/2, etc.

Is it a big brand? Hell, yes it is, but it's nowhere close to what it use to be. There's a reason why I didn't really play Halo until the Xbox 360 was out. I wasn't even remotely interested in the xbox, because as far as I was concerned, all the games I most cared about were on the ps2. The PS2 was my console of choice back then and I could care less about the original Xbox. This gen the 360 was my console of choice, because it simply had more of the games I was interested in, Blue Dragon, Lost Odyssey, and when I saw GTA later confirmed, it was at that point that I realized that, with the exception of the new final fantasy and metal gear, I don't need a ps3, although I ended up getting one anyway. But we all know in the end even final fantasy came to the Xbox 360 as well, shame the game sucked.

It's kinda funny when you think about it. If I told you all why I bought a ps3, you would all probably laugh at me. Final Fantasy 7 PS3 demo, Final Fantasy Versus 13.... Those games are the primary reasons I now own a PS3, because I expected a remake of FF7, and Versus 13 looked so nuts. How badly did I get burned on those two things! So, I only ended up getting Uncharted 2, God of War 3, MGS4, one of the ratchet and clank games, and a few other things for my ps3, and everything else is all on the 360.

I really don't feel it's about the brand. Remember how people thought psp would utterly destroy the Nintendo DS? It's always about the games, and as good as sony's first party offerings were, they largely forgot that it was the third parties that largely made them in the first place, and if signs so far are accurate, that Sony has remembered how important third parties are, then it's possible the new Playstation will be my preferred console of choice. Because, as I say, there's zero loyalty to console brands for me. I jump ship at the drop of a hat and rarely look back. And while I may not stress or give a damn about specs, I do absolutely care which console is the best choice for third party games, and if it's apparent that one console seems to be getting the better third party titles, and that happens to be the PS4, then no way in hell am I going to buy all my games for the new xbox. Sure, I'll be all over Halo 5 when it releases, and I'm still praying for a new blue dragon or more sakaguchi titles in general no matter where they come from, but it probably won't take me too long to figure out which console I prefer. And I know some people don't care about this stuff, but the software features and services matter a great deal, too.

Only Microsoft first party ip I give a damn about now are

Halo
Forza
Blue Dragon
Lost Odyssey
Project Gotham Racing (maybe...)

No specific rare ip, but just a damn good rare game, hopefully....


Stuff I could care less about now, unless they can somehow convince me they are worth my time again.


Gears. (haven't bought a gears game again since the first one. Others I've played by simply borrowing copies from friends.)
I've lost interest in fable unless they can win me back.

And I hope for some cool new surprises that I'm not expecting, but everything else, I'm leaning on third parties, and I'm genuinely interested in what multimedia, entertainment features these two consoles will have.

Only Playstation IP that genuinely gets me excited right now, and it's mostly cause I want to see how insane they look on the next playstation, are

god of War
uncharted
gran turismo
ratchet and clank

Blue dragon, Lost Odyssey and PGR are dead franchises and will never appear again. Gears I stopped after the 2nd, halo I didnt buy 4, forza I didnt buy 4 or horizon. Uncharted I didnt buy 3, GT I didnt buy on PS3, GOW and the rest never really got me. Tbh, I moved back to PC a couple of years ago, a gen shouldnt last more than 5 years, the games just looked too dated to me. I still bought a few multiplats on 360, RDR, GTA4, Resi 5+6 etc etc but their first party stuff lost me. Mainly cause they never changed.

I just think if you put the 2 consoles in front of people at the same time with the same value propositions as the ps3 and 360 the vast majority will jump on the sony machine because there is no brand loyalty and first party support in general has been so poor across both machines, FPS, 3PS take your pick. Sony embrace a more open platform, swappable HDD, inbuilt batteries, free online gaming + access to netflix etc, bluetooth headsets. Meanwhile MS makes as much shit proprietary as they can and locks as much content behind paywalls as possible. Then theres the likes of MMO's or other sub based games that MS is too closed a platform for and their charging for patches etc.
MS needs to change a LOT about their business practices just to stand with sony regardless of their console being weaker. Last time 360 had a head start and so much more going for it that they generated a lot of buzz before the ps3 could gather any momentum, I don't see them getting any of that this time so they have to stand toe to toe.

Please show some mercy! You didn't have to say it like that. I'm aware they're probably dead, just don't want to believe it lol. I agree, Microsoft has to stand toe to toe now, because the advantages they enjoyed last time, they won't be getting this time. Sony no longer underestimates Xbox, and that might be bad news for MS. I would like for online play to become free on the 360, as it's the primary reason why I don't bother with online sometimes. However, I may bite the bullet if gold as a whole seems more worth it. Still, the 360 is my primary movie watching device in my house when I'm not watching regular tv or on the pc. I'm interested in seeing what MS does with the new xbox, same with Sony and ps4.

I consider the last three of them dead and buried.
Forza became dull, because it keeps reusing the same old tracks over and over again. The few additions they made since FM1 cant even compensate the good tracks they got rid off (Rio, Blue Mountain, the shipyard to name only some of them)...

Oh yeah and Rare that produced quality is also dead...

next gen new ip's..... cant wait.

Yea, hopefully some nice new ips. Microsoft opened studios all over the place, so that's a positive sign. And a good number of them, based on job listings, are clearly hardcore game studios.

Naughty Dog would be the main seller for me. Well, them and the devs that did Pixel Junk or Journey. Unless Santa Monica does some serious overhauls of GOW. I have no confidence in Gran Tourissmo based on 5, and I never cared for Ratchet and Clank. Killzone needs to do more too, IMO.

I think the power issue will be even less of an issue this time than last, as both Sony and MS will likely be very similar. Graphics are at a point where small differences will be negligable. Slight dips in FPS and maybe some weird resolutions( all hopefully above 720p). We'll see, but aren't they BOTH using AMD tech? MS will use DDR 3 and Sony will use half the amount with DDR5, but how much difference is there between the two. Both companies are smart, so they'll both be shooting for what's economically viable. It'll all come down to what they show at E3.

I DO know that MS will have my money because I am a Halo friggin' whore. Whether I get Sony's machine first or not is the question...

4 new Microsoft ip.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=51120...

Hopefully they are all serious gaming titles.