Yea, the GDDR4/GDDR5 is just splitting hairs, but I wanted to make it clear that DDR3 isn't exactly that dated with respect to where we are currently on even our high end pcs.

Separate from that, stating the obvious is pretty much all I've been doing from the get go, but somehow it was misconstrued that I was having hyper unrealistic expectations, when really all I've been saying was exactly what has been true for console generation after console generation. Will they produce results that will seemingly push up there with high end gaming pcs? You bet they will. It's a guarantee they will, they just won't realistically be as powerful as those high end gaming pcs are, because we know high end gaming pcs rarely (read: never) get utilized to their hardware's max potential. The new consoles will just be very good at deceiving many that they are as strong as high end gaming pcs, but nobody that actually knows why that couldn't possibly be the case, of course, will be fooled, but you get the point. PC will always be able to do better. These consoles could produce the most beautiful videogame ever made, but if there's a pc version, well, we know the pc version is likely to be better, even if not better optimized.


Like I've said before, these consoles, if these leaks are 100% accurate, would be able to produce results that seem well in excess of what they should be able to do. I would also have to agree that, right now, Sony's console looks like the more exciting for anyone looking to have the stronger of the two machines, and you're 100% right that the glaring bottlenecks are gone. I do think the Xbox's 8GB (5GB for games if 3GB OS reserve is true) is something that shouldn't be overlooked, though. It's slower memory, but there's still more of it. It being slower doesn't make it irrelevant and not a factor. The new xbox is the more complex console to develop for now, it seems, but one big factor, I think, is that the ESRAM is not limited in the same ways that the EDRAM was on the Xbox 360, and that should be a pretty big deal. And this gen, developers have a lot of experience working with the 360's EDRAM, so working with the ESRAM should seem like an obvious extension of that. That said, any exclusives that I might go nuts over exists on both sides, sure, but there's only one of those exclusives that I'm absolutely guaranteed will actually ever get made, and it's Halo. I think if there's a FF7 remake, it's more likely to be on the PS4, and I'm kinda holding out hope that it gets made. I desperately want a Blue Dragon 2 on the next Xbox, but that probably isn't happening either :(

I also can't very well have you accusing me of being realistic. I'm going to have to say some crazy stuff from here on out, because I have a rep to protect :)

I see the new xbox as more cpu focused, and the ps4 as more gpu focused. That's why I don't necessarily view the DDR3 as dated. DDR3 is a significantly important standard in all high end computers today. DDR3 may be a standard that has some legs, but I don't see that as being the same as being dated in the same sense as, say, DDR2 is now dated. If I gave you $10,000 right now and told you to go build yourself the best possible computer you can, there's a 100% chance that there's probably a lot of DDR3 inside that machine, unless of course you opt to build a weaker machine, with a much less advanced motherboard, and thus, much less advanced GPU and CPU as well.

I think you mean ILLUMIROOM

No grift, you would go out of your way to replace all the GDDR5 chips on the GFX card with DDR3 chips cause its just superior to all alternatives. DDR3 would be in the PC today, however its a technology at the end of its lifecycle, 3D stacked chips and DDR4 are soon to hit market and i'm sure MS and sony could have aimed to include such tech (although it might still be a bit underdeveloped). GDDR5 is still a good compromise between todays tech and tomorrows tech, DDR3 is not.

That's true, but then the PS4 also doesn't have any DDR3 :P It doesn't need it, I know, but clearly Microsoft's engineering team, if the leak is still accurate and nothing has changed, were fairly confident that the new xbox didn't need GDDR5.

More cpu focused doesn't have to mean Intel Core i7 levels of cpu. A Core 2 Quad was simply listed as what would be the least required to keep up with the new console cpus, a cpu that, might I add, absolutely crushes both the 360 and ps3's cpus. We aren't comparing with what's available or possible on pcs, because consoles can never win that war. We are basically comparing to where we came from on the previous (current) consoles. Now, just because I view it as looking more cpu focused doesn't mean I'm actually right, nor does it mean that the cpu needs to be some kind of monster for this to be accurate. The console might just be geared, for whatever reason, more towards getting the most out of the cpu that's available in addition to being a serious gaming console, and perhaps DDR3 was uniquely appropriate for their goals, I don't know. GDDR5, I think, is also quite expensive in comparison to DDR3, and Microsoft clearly, I guess, didn't want to incur the cost associated with 8GB of GDDR5 (apparently neither did Sony). On top of that, they also clearly must have felt that having 8GB worth of ram was so important to them that even 4GB of GDDR5 simply wouldn't suffice for their goals. There's a common sense assumption to be made here that, whatever Microsoft has in mind for the new Xbox, having faster ram is simply not good enough. Whatever it is they want to do, they needed more ram, and were willing to get it however they could.Rubbish, I say. I challenge that assessment. GDDR5 is pretty much also at the end of its lifecycle, whether you choose to believe that or not.

You think if DDR4 is on the way that it's only DDR3 that's headed out the door? Nope, it's GDDR5, too, because GDDR5 is based on DDR3 SDRAM. Know what will happen when DDR4 comes out? You guessed it, we'll soon see GDDR6, likely based on DDR4 SDRAM. GDDR6 is set to debut in 2014, the exact same time when DDR4 is set to become the new standard. No matter how new you think GDDR5 might be, it, too, is at the end of its lifecycle. In fact, in most high end computers, probably even in most of everybody's computers on this very forum, you could say that GDDR5 is even closer to the end of its lifecycle than DDR3 is, because most computer users are more likely to buy and upgrade to a GDDR6 equipped graphics card well before they have a full system up and built to take advantage of DDR4 memory.

So what you'll see is pretty high end computers still using DDR3 memory for some time before they are ever using DDR4, because, as I said, it's much easier to upgrade to a GDDR6 equipped GPU based on DDR4, than it is to upgrade and build an entire system designed to take advantage of DDR4. No computer CPU right now, save for Intel's upcoming Haswell EX chips, due in the second half of 2014, will even have support for DDR4, and I think there's currently no motherboard yet that I know of that supports DDR4, either. So, really look into it, and you'll see that it's GDDR5, and not DDR3, that is likely to die a quicker death, simply based on the type of investment that will be required to support DDR4 memory.

lol, well that's up to you. Nobody is forcing a new xbox down your throat, after all. If you think it isn't worth your money, then who am I to disagree? You get what you think has earned your hard earned dollars, simple as that. And to answer your GDDR5 question about it being better than what's in the Durango leak. Was the R ram inside the PS3 not also better and faster than the GDDR3 inside the Xbox 360? Oh, it was? Wasn't it also newer and fancier, too? It won't make as big a difference as you think it will. Same situation, different consoles, but this time replace R with GDDR5 and replace GDDR3 with DDR3.

You still miss the point, though. Consoles aren't competing against pcs, or with the computers that we use to post on this very forum. They are competing only against other consoles. The processor inside my computer may take a passing glance at the cpus inside the new xbox and ps4 right before it laughs itself to sleep, but for gaming consoles, what's going to be inside the new xbox and PS4 IS bleeding edge. This is reality, unless, of course, you can point out a console to me with a more impressive processor than the 8 core AMD Jaguars reportedly going to be inside the new xbox and ps4.

That's the point. Everytime you try to compare these consoles to PCs, you showcase that you simply don't get it, or maybe you do, but are just being disagreeable for the sake of being disagreeable. What kind of processor did you want inside these consoles? An 8 core Intel Xeon 2687W, perhaps? Certainly that's bleeding edge enough, is it not? It sells for a pretty low price of $1,934

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N8...

Peep it's outrageous performance review.

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/xeon-e5-2687w-...

But then, the audio DSP inside Durango might be a beast, as they say it took an intel Xeon in the dev kits just to emulate what it would be doing inside the new Xbox. So there's always that.

Just as ridiculous as you think it is for me to mention a monster server cpu, that's how ridiculous I think it is for you to be condemning consoles that need to be affordable for the masses for somehow not being powerful enough on paper in comparison to high end gaming pcs.

Strawman argument? rubbish. The same stuff that I'm hearing from you now, is basically the same exact stuff I heard people say about the PS3's R ram and how it was sooo much better than the GDDR3 inside the Xbox 360, because it was *gasp* clocked at the same exact speed as the Cell Processor. I never said the beefier GPU wouldn't make a difference. You're trying to have your own strawman arguments right now while accusing me of making them. I've said already in this thread how much more powerful the ps4's gpu could be compared to Durango's gpu if everything pans out as it does. However, allow me to throw a little something back at ya. The same way you accuse me of not thinking a beefier GPU will make a difference, I challenge that you are guilty of thinking 8GB of ram compared to 4GB, will not make any difference. PS4 supposedly reserves 512MB of that for the OS, so that leaves 3.5GB for games. Durango supposedly reserves 3GB of it's 8GB, leaving 5GB for games. I question that 3GB reservation, but even if its accurate, I fully expect that number to drop over the life of the console, freeing up even more than 5GB for games on Durango. God forbid that number should ever fall by a full 1GB, leaving 6GB for games. There's quite a bit of wiggle room for a console OS with 3GB worth of ram, and much less so with 512MB.

As I said earlier, I'm aware that it isn't possible to use all of that ram per frame on the new xbox, nor is it possible to use all the available ram per frame on the PS4. However, there's just no way that there's going to be gobs of ram sitting around serving no purpose at all. They will be utilized for the purpose of making the game better. There can be real and meaningful gameplay implications to having access to more ram.Then you should be, I guess, somewhat pleased with a compromise that includes 2 modern AMD APU quad core processors a piece inside both the new xbox and the new playstation? That's how both arrive at the 8 core processors they have. They combine 2 quad core APUs based on AMD's brand spanking new, and I think, still unreleased, Jaguar architecture. And they appear quite capable and up to the task of serving as solid console cpus. I mean, nothing on the level of what you or I are probably running, but these should be pretty good. And there's even talk that the Xbox's cpu could be even more beefed up than the PS4's 8 core Jaguar.

Also, both consoles, I think, could most likely also be using HSA, which has the potential to be a VERY, VERY big deal for both these consoles. It allows the capability to have the GPU and processor work together seamlessly in a way that is very desirable to programmers, but really hasn't been possible to this degree before, and I think the way current pcs are designed kinda holds this potential back, but both of these consoles will be entirely free of that limitation due to the nature of how consoles are designed.

http://developer.amd.com/resources/heterogeneous-c...


fficially_Roll_Out_Kabini_and_Temash_Low_Power_APUs_This_Quarter.html" target="_blank" >http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/mobile/display/201301...

Also, there could be a concern over using Jaguar cores for a few reasons that are listed in this article here.


http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/mainboards/display/20...The PS4 seems to have 4 AMD GCN Compute Units strictly dedicated to helping to solve this problem.
The new Xbox has literally, at least, 7 different special purpose accelerators on board that could help with this. I included the 4 data move engines on the new xbox in that number. The new Xbox appears to have quite a few special-purpose accelerators built all over it. And these are all things that will help in their own, unique, but very important way. I'm sure in ways I can't even begin to understand or explain.

I keep hoping this thread will get interesting..

I keep leaving upset.

I keep coming here for the wall of text tournament, its clear who is winning :P

Haha, okay, I'll show something more interesting.


AMD Temash Prototype shown at CES. Much weaker than the version of the 2 Quad Core AMD Jaguar APUs that will be in both the new xbox and ps4. This is Dirt Showdown running at 1080p on a tablet.http://www.pcper.com/news/Mobile/CES-2013-Video-AM...

Name does not matter but I don't think they it will be called 720. Also there is no need to be so insecure about xbox.

They either need exclusive games or Kinect, non gaming stuff to attract consumers. I think they already decided what a average person need from console thereofre it is more of a family console.

family console...

and there is where there main userbase jumps ship and rides the playstation/pc bandwagon.

LOL...

To sum up both new consoles games will end up looking similar, and second and thrid generation games will look Jaw Dropping :)

New rumor http://www.edge-online.com/news/the-next-xbox-alwa...

"Always online, no second-hand games, 50GB Blu-ray and new kinect"
"It is believed that games purchased on disc will ship with activation codes, and will have no value beyond the initial user."

No second-hand games and activation code? screw that shit, i dont want to keep the same games for ever when i dont play them anymore. If they keep this type of shit up it will be easier decision for me...even though i am leaning heavily towards PS4 as it is as default.

http://www.vgleaks.com/world-exclusive-durangos-mo...

Pretty damn interesting. Sounds fairly elegant and well thought out. Certainly seems helpful. It looks like they also manage to achieve certain results that would otherwise have been performed by, I guess, extra Compute Units, but the move engines seem to succeed at those extra tasks while using notably less bandwidth compared to the amount that shaders would have otherwise consumed trying to work with the same exact data.Edit: Sath, don't be surprised if Sony does a similar thing with used games :)

They better not do it since most games i have played i have traded them in based on how shitty they were or i didnt need them anymore. Only Ps3 games i got now is NGS2 and God of war 3 and Black Ops 2 (which i will probably trade it for PSN card).

This new way they are going sucks, as if the whole online pass wasent enough.

i don't really care about the no-used-game thing when it concerns games i plan to buy since i don't sell them on anyway. i keep all the games i buy. but it will kill my ability to rent...which would basically cut my gaming by about 4/5ths. it would suck. i can't imagine either party to do it. but i definately hope sony don't.

I also see another site has now picked up on that nonsense about Microsoft supposedly not allowing devs to code to the metal. Kind of a funny claim to make when the actual documentation provided to developers merely just points out a range of best case implementations that Microsoft suggests developers use to achieve the best possible results in their games, implementations that have been apparently rigorously tested, and then more or less leaves them to their own devices after that. It'll be cool to see how big, mean old Microsoft has caused the developers to screw up their games :)

And Sony's development environment has always been less crowded than Microsoft's. What else is new. It doesn't seem to hampered xbox development too much thus far.

I sure as hell don't like that always on internet crap. That seems crazy annoying. I don't always connect my xbox online. Oh, my fault, I forgot that this newer xbox should actually come with wifi this time around, so I guess no big :p It was hell trying to stretch Ethernet cables down to my living room where the biggest tv Is located.