Scratch that, just checked previous videos. That's pc all the way. No friggin way was the 360 pulling that. Vid is just mislabeled it seems. Anyway, off to work. I hate getting up early :/

Nothing wrong with 720p/60fps, but if its 720p/30fps then meh.

1080p/30fps
720p/60fps

Thats basically how it should and probably be like next gen.
I am sure most devs who gives a damn, will probably go 1080/30fps while some games like action games from japan and COD will be 720p/60fps. Unless the graphics are so shit they can pull off 1080p/60fps (something i expect from COD franchise).

All thse speculations and stuff and "what i want" is done so many times its useless to keep repeating. Its a matter of just waiting and see the games runnig on final specs when revealed (please dont use CGI trailers, dont need them anymore).

that's precisely what you're doing. the only way you can even comprehend the next gen being impressive and "mind blowing" is if it dials everything back to current gen standards. hence, ass backwards.

"The games themselves can be more ambitious and technically impressive overall if you aren't wasting the extra resources on the much higher resolution."

bullshit. are you claiming that the games that rendered at 560p THIS gen, where more tehnically impressive and more ambitious then the ones rendering at 720p? as i said, the best looking and performing titles this gen where the ones that met the standards the generation set out to achive. ie 720p "HD" gaming. they wern't paried back to meet those standards, there wern't sacrifices, there wearnt compromises. so why, would that suddenly be the case with 1080p next gen with more powerful hardware and the means to achieve it?

the way i see it, the developers who are actually worth a damn will aim for 1080p, and they will be the best looking games of the gen. that's the case currently with 720p gaming, and it will be the case in the future.

your standards are too low. it's as simple as that.

Heh, you're funny. Nobody said a thing about 560p, and the comparison you're making is flawed. 720p was ALWAYS the perfect targeting spot for devs this gen, so targeting 720p was never seen as stupid. However, want to know what WAS stupid? All the big talk made that this gen would be the generation of 1080p Full HD. You talk about this gen the standard was suppose to be 720p? WRONG. Sony was pushing 1080p all the way from the very start. Even Microsoft was guilty of this somewhat, just not as guilty as Sony was. All the PS3's most impressive games, God of War, Uncharted, Killzone, Gran Turismo even Last of Us, these were suppose to be all be 1080p full hd games according to sony's early ps3 hype. How quickly you've forgotten this fact.. One of the few in this thread that seems to remember this fact is ManThatYouFear, as he's one of the few that actually mentioned it.


720p was always the sweet spot of this gen, and it has become the standard because common sense prevailed over hype. However, when developers this gen made the decision that they needed to come in a bit lower than true 720p, I didn't complain about it, why? Because the developers I felt clearly knew better than the lot of us about how best to make their game, and what they, as a team, were prepared to accomplish at the time. However, this upcoming gen? No dev should come under 720p, ever. These consoles will simply be too capable, and devs have more experience with multi-threaded programming. Most devs have improved engines and will better be able to hit the ground running next gen. 720p isn't obsolete now, and will not suddenly be obsolete next gen.

Higher resolution, in itself, is NOT next gen, and in no shape or form ensures us the kind of jump we are looking to see from next gen. PC gamers have been able to go 1080p and beyond for years, not only with the best looking games, but also with some of the shittiest looking games that don't come anywhere close to some of the things we see on the ps3 and 360. The 360 and PS3 are both fully capable of 1080p, but the games would have been too compromised to be as impressive as they needed to be, which is why Sony backed off of their claim of 1080p full HD bigtime. The sweet spot of this gen is 720p, and I don't anticipate that changing next gen simply because the consoles are much more powerful.

What will vindicate next gen and showcase the jump people want to see is utilizing all the extra power of the new consoles to do more advanced lighting, better, more detailed game models, better shadows, better texture filtering, better AA, better physics and animation, better draw distances, more detailed and believable environments, etc. The resolution in the grand scheme of things does not play the biggest factor. Yea, you'll have some games target 1080p next gen, but a crap ton of them, if not the most, will also target 720p because devs will simply have more power to throw around to make their game look and play as impressively as possible. If you think most devs are going to sacrifice that just to hit some 1080p bulletpoint, you're in for a surprise.

My standards aren't too low. They are common sense. 720p is still HD, and still looks fantastic. Why target 1080p when you make a notably more impressive looking and playing game at 720p, which is, I guarantee, what most devs are going to do. There's a reason that a lot of devs have already said that there will be a lot of 720p games next gen.

I often play in 720 on my PC to be able to push the quality settings a bit higher. Then again i usually play on my TV so i don't really notice a huge difference between the two resolutions.

Really? And can anyone here honestly say that gaming will undergo some massive evolution if face melting graphics and ultra high definition become the norm? We already have near photo-realism on PC, but it's hardly improved innovation or even inspired developers to do anything different from what they were ALREADY doing 5-10 years ago. Do you understand what I'm getting at here Korn? Even if we get everything we want out the next gen consoles (or PC for that matter), not much would be expected to change. Sure we'll be playing in prettier worlds, but the trade off could be shorter, more casualized experiences.

Be careful what you ask for

I do think by the 2nd or 3rd year these new machines are out, there should be little excuse for not putting out 1080p 60fps games, especially for your better more respected developers. But again, I'd be happy with top notch graphics at 720p/60fps, that should be the minimum spec, no excuses. I think 4K games should be off the table, unless these new machines are a lot more powerful, than I'm expecting. 4K is just something that TV manufacturers want to sell more hardware. Broadcasters are at the limit now with spectrum/broadband hitting 1080p, especially here in the U.S. And if you look at the charts I've posted previously, 4K bang for the buck is a long ways off. I'm sure Sony will tout their PS4 can play some games at 4K, to help them sell 4K TVs at some point, just like they tried doing with 3D features, and you see most titles from Sony now, don't have 3D as an option.

Grift, we are simply gamers, not game developers. Why the heck would lowering resolution on an already developed pc title increase image quality? But for a game developer, designing a game natively in a lower, less demanding HD resolution does in fact produce a more visually impressive game. The rules change just a tad for gamers and game developers. I figure you knew that.


And, no, I do not game in 720p on my pc, because my pc is powerful enough to run most existing games at much higher resolutions. When you're playing existing pc games, higher and higher resolutions do in fact make the game look better, but consoles aren't pcs. They are closed box environments. There is no customization and upgrading your machine on consoles. However, the lower the resolution on my computer, the more impressive effects I can turn on while maintaining strong fps, thus producing a superior looking game at lower resolutions. :)

Question: Do you believe Uncharted 2 and 3, Forza 4, God of War, Gran Turismo 5, Halo 4, Killzone, Last of Us would all look better at 1080p than they do at 720p, not on new, much more powerful consoles, not on pc, but on the same exact machines that they are now on?

The answer is simply no, because they wouldn't be able to look quite as impressive if natively developed at a much more demanding resolution. Effects and various aspects of the games would have to be scaled back just to accommodate 1080p.

Take the upcoming god of war ascension. It's designed for native 720p. Why is that exactly? Surely they can make it 1080p if they wanted to, but at what cost? That's the point I'm trying to make here.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-t...

Just because the next xbox and playstation will be significantly more powerful than current gen systems doesn't change this reality. Will they be able to make incredible looking games at 1080p? Absolutely. In fact, I hope they do. I'm not against 1080p games. I just don't want Sony and Microsoft to force all developers to make games in that resolution, thus limiting their options. We all know 1080p games on the next gen systems are sure to look much better than the best 720p games of this gen. But then it begs the question. How much more amazing would 720p next xbox and ps4 titles look? There's simply more power available to devs to do more impressive things at less demanding resolutions. Acert more or less makes a similar argument on beyond3d. You don't need higher resolutions for amazing image quality.

Yes absolutly.

Just stick to Halo, less embarassment there.

PS. those who say no is blind or never seen PC to HDTV 1080p maxed out games, period.

Answer me this... Why did the developers not make the mentioned games at 1080p, if they look better as you claim? Because your statement is false.

Exactly. We aren't just chasing higher resolutions or better graphics. We want the games themselves to be different and better than what we were getting 5-10 years ago, or representative of something we couldn't get on previous consoles. It isn't a perfect game (still love it), but Assassin's Creed's core gameplay mechanic, the free-running and being able to move through the environment with that degree of freedom was at least something very new. More forward thinking ideas become more possible if developers aren't simply focused on jumping to higher and higher resolutions while giving us the exact same types of games we've always been getting. Not exactly like that's this terrible thing, but at least allow the devs to use all that power to give us something different, and not just a higher resolution version of games we've already been getting.Thank you. Someone gets what the hell I'm saying. What utter nonsense to believe those same games on the ps3 and 360 would somehow look better because the resolution is higher. They wouldn't be as impressive in higher resolutions on the same exact machines, because they would have been forced to cutback on things. Why people can't get this, I'll never know.What's embarrassing is how much you really have no idea what the heck you're talking about... The level of cluelessness is bizarre. You are comparing a finished game running on a high end pc where said pc has more than enough power to keep upping the resolution, thus producing a better looking game to console developers making a conscious to develop a game at a lower resolution, ensuring that they will be able to dedicate more of the system's resources to making the game look as impressive as possible. You cannot compare the two things because they aren't the same. Which part of this don't you understand? If you say yes to that question I asked, then you, my friend, are clueless.

Do you realize how sluggish and terrible those games I listed would run on the ps3 and 360 if they were designed exactly the same way, but at 1080p native? Pass me whatever it is you're smoking.

1080p wont look better than 720p?

Read that carefully and then think about it for a moment, that will be native 1080p vs 720p.

The reason devs dont do it is cause the hardware cant not because they think it will not look better, jeez.

We are talking about next gen resolutions, not this gen.

But even so, 1080p WILL look better than 720p even this gen plain fact, "Why people can't get this, I'll never know."

Higher resolution mean it will look sharper, crisper, colorful, it wouldnt be a technical update just more details put in and more colorful thats it.
Just like how PS2/Xbox/Wii HD versions look like when you use emulators on PC, thats how it will be like.

Developers won't put 1080p cause it will nto look better son, deal with it.

as for me:

Hardware restrictions.

So you're essentially proving the point we are making... What good is a game that has terrible, sluggish performance? Running like complete crap at a much higher resolution does not equal looking better. Performance is also very much apart of what makes a game look good. Performance and visuals aren't exactly disconnected. Nobody wants to play a nice looking slideshow. As powerful as the new machines will be, whatever a top tier dev can produce on a big project at 720p will more than likely perform like crap at native 1080p on those exact same machines with absolutely no chances or downgrades between the 720p and 1080p native versions, because the developer would have ensured to squeeze as much out of the system at 720p as they could, leaving very little room for the consoles to handle that game at 1080p.

Any developer, even this gen, if they wanted to make every single game we played in 1080p, they could have. Halo 4 could have been 1080p, Uncharted 2 could have been 1080p, Forza 4 could have been 1080p, Gran Turismo 5 could have been 1080p but they would all look much worse than they actually do. I'm stunned anybody is disagreeing with this.ROFLMAO!! That's not how it will be like, Sath. You're talking about significantly more powerful computers running far less visually demanding games at higher resolutions. That isn't what we are talking about here.

We are talking about a console game developer doing all that they can to make a game look as incredible as they can possibly make it look at 720p, and then with no changes at all, suddenly deciding to up the resolution to 1080p. You know what would happen? The game would likely have horrific frame rate issues, and would be unplayable. To make an extreme example out of this, let's take a pc that can only run crisis 2 at max settings at 1080p. That's the limitation of that computer as far as Crysis 2 is concerned. Now let's double the resolution on that same exact pc that can only handle crisis 2 max settings at 1080p. What happens? The game becomes unplayable, forcing us to lower the visuals significantly.

That's what we are saying will happen on the next gen xbox and ps4 if developers unnecessarily target too high a resolution, they will inevitably abandon putting stuff into the game that would have made it into the game at a lower native resolution.

Thats what I'm saying, they are practically forced to put even sometimes sub HD crap cause of the 2005 hardware, is easy to understand it.

Why are you keep using 1080p discussion on 360 and Ps3, everybody knows they arent powerful enough to pull that shit off. I mean hell, not even COD can pull off 720p/60fps with that piece of ancient engine on consoles. Or Crysis games at 720p with 30fps.

We are talking about next gen consoles and until we see it in action on the games they make based on 1080p or 720p and its performance and visuals all combined we dont know shit, especially when different devs have its ups and downs.

You think if devs could pull off the same visuals, 30fps at 1080p on 360 and ps3 they wouldnt do it? they would do it because they know it would look damn good, but then something is holding them back they got to sacrifice something which is resolution.

Remember Resistance 3? sub Hd shit, visuals was bad, only thing good was that motion blur effect to hide the uglyness thats it.

No man, I dont understand what is so hard to get about all this, you are confusing "looks" with performance for some reason, those games will and would look better at "1080p" always no matter how you cut it, as if they will perform or the same? of course not, they struggle to even perform decent at 720p.

Take BLOPS 2 for example, it sure runs at 55-60 fps on PS3 and 360, still looks llike garbage sub HD blurry as fuck palying it on my 1080p Plasma, and something like Crysis 2 that has a little more resolution looks a million times better, why? cause it has higher resolution, performs better than CoD? not a chance, looks better? hell fucking yes.

You are talking about a completly unrelated thing here, sure as hell you are not thinking about resolution quality because everything you said makes no sense whatsoever taking resolution into account.

Everybody's computer here, unless you simply have a monster rig, will fail to run a certain game at the highest possible settings at a certain resolution, forcing them to inevitably lower the graphical settings to have any chance whatsoever at playing that game. This is also true in game development.

Am I saying next gen xbox and ps4 can't do 1080p? Of course not. I'm just saying that Next Gen xbox and ps4 would produce far more unbelievable looking, next gen worthy games at 720p native than they would at 1080p native, because the developers will have more resources available to them at that resolution. For every amazing 1080p game that we will see next gen, it will be a fact that it could have looked and played even more amazingly at 720p.

720p is not an obsolete or unfit resolution for next gen gaming. I prefer to see devs make their games in 720p, and then if people want to play in 1080p, they can simply let the console upscale it. That isn't a problem for good HDTVs. They are designed to do this stuff. Also, just like some devs did this gen, they can make sure the HUD and Menus change with whatever resolution the person is playing the game at, that way text and menus are always nice and crisp and readable. HUD in 1080p, game actually running at a native 720p. Devs have done this kind of thing already this gen on both the xbox and ps3. Is 1080p really that big a difference that you would sacrifice all the bells and wistles and, no doubt, the gameplay enhancements that would become possible for devs to make at a native 720p?

Crysis 2 looks better than COD not because of higher resolution, but because it is, simply put, a more technically advanced game compared to anything that's present in BLOPs2. Black Ops 2 exactly as it is now could be designed at a much higher, native resolution of 1080p, and for the sake of argument, it would perform at a fantastic 60 frames per second. Guess what? Black Ops 2 would still look like crap compared to Crysis 2, even at an identical resolution as Crysis 2. Crysis 2 doesn't just look better because of higher resolution. It looks better because it has more advanced graphical techniques. It has far superior lighting, far superior shadows, far superior particle effects, far superior shaders and likely texture techniques, far superior geometry, and much more detailed environments and draw distance.

And SathThis couldn't be any further from the truth, Sath. Both the 360 and PS3 CAN do 1080p. There are a few pretty damn amazing looking 1080p games on the 360 and PS3. But what's the catch? To support 1080p, developers would have to tone down all the graphical bells and whistles that they would use at 720p, or else the game wouldn't run properly. If Naughty Dog wanted Uncharted 2 and 3 to run at 1080p, they could accomplish it with flawless performance, the game just wouldn't look anywhere near as good as it does now. Same for 343 and Halo 4, or polyphony digital with Gran Turismo 5. All devs can make games full 1080p on the 360 and ps3 if they wish, and they can also make them run fantastically. Hell, they can even make them 60fps if they want. But they just wouldn't look all that impressive compared to their 720p counterparts.I agree 100% that if they could they would, but there's a catch. If they could make all those games look just as good at 1080p on 360 and ps3. What stops them from being tempted to make those same games look even more amazing by dropping the resolution from 1080p? So therein lies the rub about next gen consoles. They have the power, but how many developers won't be tempted to go for as low a resolution as possible, 720p being the minimum allowed, just to make the game look that much more amazing? That's pretty much all I'm saying. If developers can make games look outrageously good at 1080p on the next xbox and the ps4, it also means they can make even more amazing looking games at 720p.

Want to know how dumb your argument is even when you say great graphics is okay at 720p and let it upscale?

I took same wallpaper of Crysis 3, different resolution, one from 720p upscaled to 1080p, and one 1080p native.

720p upscale to 1080p http://postimage.org/image/lzad7o7bn/full/
1080p native http://s13.postimage.org/lb1ioq8lx/1080p.jpg
Now alt-tab between the two in same spot and see how ugly the upscale is.

Thats exactly how it will be like and is, so stop writing an essay whe you are constantly saying the wrong thing.

And i know they can use 1080p. But guess what type of games? those are PSN/XBLA.

I understand what you mean though, but like i said, if they tend to use 720p then it better be 60fps LOCKED or else 1080p and have 60fps if not, nothing below 30fps...as crappy as that sounds.

Nope, not just psn/xbla games. Games like this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhwRnJPhGbw

NBA Street Homecourt. Full 1080p, 60fps, and I believe 4XMSAA on the Xbox 360. I will confirm that, but I know for a fact it runs at a native 1080p.

That's a very crude way of performing an upscale, Sath, as games are not just static pictures, they move. But, for the sake of argument, I'll go ahead and accept that the upscale would look just like that. Here's the catch. Simply because a game might be rendering at, say, 720p natively, doesn't mean the textures themselves well beyond 1080p or above in the actual game. This is why I think the native resolutions means less and less. There are lots of ps3 and xbox 360 games that use texture resolutions far higher than the native rendering resolution of the game. So, even in the case of an upscale, it's possible that the textures, as opposed to be blurred out like you see on the nanosuit in the picture you upscaled, they would actually look as crisp as the 1080p picture. This is already happening in 360 and ps3 games today. This is why I don't think we need to fear 720p. Uncharted may be 720p, but it has textures in game far in excess of that resolution. The same is also true for Halo 4 and countless other titles. It's true for Gran Turismo 5, God of War 3 etc.

Still, either way, I think we have more or less come to an agreement, because I honestly think we were arguing two different things initially. I wasn't exactly entirely opposed to what you were saying, and I don't think you were entirely opposed to what I was saying, I just don't think we were arguing about precisely what we felt we were. I don't deny that 1080p looks fantastic, nor do I deny what a higher resolution can do for image quality. I was just saying that there are things that even a higher resolution can't give you, but superior lighting, shaders, shadows, etc can.