Nah...........that argument won't work. Most have just forgotten that Microsoft threw more than a Billion dollars away trying to woo Japanese gamers. I know it's been a awhile but we all remember how pissed we were when we learned that Microsoft gave Japan one SKU with a hard drive out the box at a cheaper price point than what was being offered for the premium console in North America and Europe. At Peter Moore's direction, the VERY DESIGN of the Xbox 360 Console was done by a Japanese design firm to appeal expressly TO Japanese consumer aesthetics. That's how we got the white box when most of us wanted a sexy black console. With all the money that was wasted UP FRONT, they could have slapped the HD-DVD player in the 360 at launch at no additional loss.

They even charged less for some 360 games than the rest of us paid. So I have to disagree with you on that Fear, Microsoft went far and beyond, Japanese gamers simply thumbed their noses at the mere suggestion of purchasing a western console. So if they killed those two titles because they didn't sell well (because they were made for Japanese gamers)..........I don't blame them. You spend more than a billion in a gaming market and you come away with just 1.6 million consoles? They were bleeding over there, it would be foolish to throw more money into that hole.

I don't think it's foolish to spend there, because it got them support elsewhere. No matter how much money Microsoft has wasted in Japan, they have lost far more on the Xbox brand over the years in general.

I mean, I'm a prime example of a current 360 owner who wouldn't have bothered with a 360 if I didn't feel comforted that I was getting serious Japanese developer support, and the console received just that. Microsoft doesn't need the Xbox to succeed in Japan, they just need the support of the Japanese game development community at large, something they certainly have succeeded at getting with this gen of games. Blue Dragon and Lost Odyssey may not have sold on par with a Halo or Gears, but they are still some of the best selling traditional jrpgs of this generation, and they gave a console that wasn't known much for its diversity of games some much needed diversity. It became a jack of all trades console, and that is never a bad thing.

Take away all the enhanced Japanese development support Microsoft has received this generation, only granting Microsoft the Japanese exclusives they paid for and toss in the expected Team Ninja support, and the Xbox 360 worldwide is in a much, much weaker position, I believe. Microsoft may not like the success they've had in Japan, but they can't think they can get away with ignoring that part of the industry. Xbox does best in the USA, but if Microsoft were to ever, with ambitions of launching a new console worldwide, neglect the Japanese or even European markets, they would pay dearly for it.

Also, Grim, you're pretty much dead on with most of what you said. The Xbox 360 was indeed originally designed with the Japanese market in mind, and they definitely received a lot of deals that many of us in other parts of the world did not. The beauty, I think, though is that Microsoft doesn't need to go nuts. But they do need to pay the Japanese market some attention, even securing a few exclusive titles here and there. Microsoft, quite frankly, would be fools to abandon the Blue Dragon brand. They legitimately have something there that, should they choose to take advantage of it, is crucial to helping them crack japan. It may not do it as fast as they would like, and it certainly can't do it alone, hell, it may not even succeed at all, but to abandon Blue Dragon, which sold better than Lost Odyssey, and which helped to provide the Xbox brand with the longest lines it has ever seen in Japan, with the best early sales excitement the Xbox has ever seen in japan, would be extremely foolish.

In many ways you can't blame Japanese gamers for not really trusting the Xbox brand. Microsoft sometimes acts as if their first crack at something will get the job done, but that isn't the way it works. They want to actually convince Japanese gamers that they are serious about exclusive ips that they start up? Show some confidence in those ips by doubling or tripling down. They look at Blue Dragon and see it as something that was probably left for dead. Microsoft has a chance to show people otherwise by making a next gen sequel, more firmly cementing that the franchise is a true part of the xbox family, and wasn't just a random one shot attempt to have Japanese gamers fall in love with them.

Microsoft japan wants to make it, and has said that numerous times. They just need approval from the folks at the top here ;)

what i meant was they expected 2 games to win them that market, they want the games not a pretty console.

Ever hear the phrase, "There's nothing so sad as unrequited love?"

Microsoft has been trying to get into the heads of Japanese gamers since 2001. They had so much enthusiasm about the Japanese game market in the beginning, with even Gates making several appearances and keynotes at Tokyo Game Shows when he had only made ONE appearance at E3 during his last year as CEO. I don't know if you can still find any of the transcripts from his keynotes, but he always spoke very highly about Japanese gamers and the importance of their game market.

But mistakes were made and we know what they were. The 360 launched with an ordinary DVD9 player when they already had HD formats over there. I had the opportunity to chat with some Japanese gamers around that time, many had mentioned Microsoft's decision to launch without HD-DVD had given many consumers the perception that it was an inferior machine. And that perception went a very long way. While most western gamers paid no attention to Kutaragi's Xbox 1.5 claims, gamers in Japan took it very seriously.

Interestingly enough Optimus, the argument that you're making in this thread about HD and high resolution (and it's a fair one) would NEVER fly in Japan, they've been living with true high definition for much longer than we have. In fact Japan will be ready to broadcast in 4K HD in just two years. I can tell you right now, Japanese gamers won't even consider the next console from Microsoft if it comes in with softer resolutions.

The other half is pretty easy to understand.........the games. For the most part the Xbox platform is a western gamer's console with attention mostly given to shooters, racers and pro sports titles. Not nearly enough RPGs or niche titles that Japanese gamers love. So Microsoft has alot to overcome if they want to be taken seriously in Japan. Personally I think they should give it up, or come up with a better strategy. And that strategy would have to include more than just spending more money.

I find that very interessting. But for the next console, I guess can assume both machines to have blu-ray disk drives.

But is it really relevant to consoles that Japan may be ready to broadcast in 4k in a few years? I mean its kind of certain that the new machines won't run AAA titles with that resolution. And for movies, does a 4k movie fit on a blu-ray

I could imagine that Sony will support 4K with very few lets say 2d-games and remakes, while MS won't.
Would that matter much to the Japanese?

Japanese will support home grown over import every time.

I couldn't be certain what matters at this point, but Microsoft throwing more money in that market won't solve anything.

Is this why the Wii, a standard def console, is, last I looked, the best selling console in Japan? I think resolutions matter much less to Japanese gamers than you imply. I agree though that Microsoft's console simply doesn't have enough games that the Japanese market will like, or that they can't also find somewhere else. But here is the real problem Microsoft has with Japan, zero followthrough. They'll fund something big, a big game project from a big name developer, and when it doesn't completely allow them to takeover and become the kings of Japan, they seemingly fall back instead of committing again to that project to prove to Japanese gamers that they are really here to stay. Microsoft has to be willing to prove that they won't immediately abandon anything that they claim to commit to. Microsoft is trying to win Japanese gamers by fooling them, not by really committing themselves to them.

Look at all the standard def titles that sell gangbusters over in japan when they release. Japan isn't nearly as concerned over HD resolutions as you might think. Japan is ahead of us on a lot of things, but that doesn't mean it's a major driving focus of their gaming purchase habits. A good way to start showcasing to Japanese gamers that they don't abandon things they make commitments to is by, at the very least, releasing another blue dragon game. Give Japan SOMETHING that they can point to and say "This is definitely Xbox's franchise, and it's something we like."

http://www.faqs.org/patents/app/20110304713#ixzz2J...


New Xbox seems to have the ability to output video, independent of what resolution the displays may accept, to 3 different displays simultaneously. It seems it has a compute unit or processor dedicated strictly to this purpose. All 3 displays, I think, would run at the same frame rate and at the same resolution. To easily understand all this stuff, just look at the pictures and the reference numbers for each thing in the pictures, and then do a search for those same numbers in the patent application. Everyone should be able to understand it.

Edit:: NVM, the content is automatically configured for the receiving display.Read more: http://www.faqs.org/patents/app/20110304713#ixzz2J...



And the 4 DMAs seem to play a crucial role in this process.

Whats the use of this? (except trying to destroy the WiiU)

I dunno, it seems like theyve included a ton of niche features that will only be used by a few. From kinect, app support to 3 display outputs it all seems a bit silly. When costing a machine you should build it to cater for the features youre gonna use most often, building all these extras just seems like a waste.

It's the PS3 all over again, they claimed to do several outputs at 1080p, multiple network ports, 8 usb ports etc etc, none of them came to fruition and I dont think many people missed them. They would have noticed if the main hardware was weaker because of it or the cost was higher. Hopefully all these things are empty rumours.

as long as it can still do the core games (like the ps3 could even though it spouted other none game features also) then thats all that matters to me, as most of the other stuff i wont even bother with, but the price and launch games will be what i'm looking at to see which one i'm buying first.

Some wishful thinking for me for MS's next Xbox is... being able to install a larger HD, like you could with a PS3. Using bluetooth as a standard for controllers. Increasing the number of friends over 100, and putting them perhaps into groups based on friends that play racing games, shooters, family, etc. Perhaps making LIVE more like PSN plus, with more freebies. Sony is really starting to raise the bar with PSN plus, and MS should take note.
Backwards compatibility with XBOX LIVE arcade and indie titles. Spectator mode in games... like Madden, COD, etc.

Just some of my dreams... :)

I prefer 360 over PS3, but Sony definitely did some things right, this last time around.

next to "games played" i would very much like a mini review feature so i can click on a game and see my friends reviews on a game.

that would be a very good feature. on the friends list, it would be nice to have a notes section, where you could put, that it is a friend from college, or you met them through playing Ghost Recon, or they are on your brothers paintball team etc. Because a big list of gamertags, it is hard to remember how you know someone, without a reminder or proper name, or when people change gamertags.

Well, it's obvious the thing has to be a serious games machine, too, but this is one of few patents / documents that we can actually understand, so I posted it. It isn't like this patent will be the only thing it's capable of. It was a given they would expand their entertainment features, as will Sony. We just know much less about how Sony will do that.

Another MS patent, one you guys have probably already seen before. There are 2 gpus listed. And another patent recently released January of this year showcases what's called an "entertainment console" that only has 1, and seems markedly different. Some suggest downgrade, but I suspect they are going 2 sku again. One will be hardcore gaming machine/entertainment box, and the other a much weaker entertainment oriented machine. It makes sense there would be far less leaks on this weaker machine, because Microsoft has no need to send it to developers, since it's not the primary game development 360.

"Development sources with working knowledge of both next generation consoles have told us that PlayStation 4 will be more powerful than the next Xbox, will ship with a redesigned controller and launch by the end of the year in Japan and the US. PlayStation 4’s European launch will follow in early 2014."

When even the devs are saying the PS4 is more powerful it's looking to me as if my relationship with MS is over. All this stupid complexity that all these rumours have pushed look to be on the head, weaker more complex hardware which is COMPLETELY against what MS did in their first 2 attempts that garnered them so much goodwill and a market foothold. If after 7 years all they can do is come out with some china knockoff version of a next gen console they are doomed.

Sony has taken first blood by going first, they will get the headlines and when MS finally does show up if they cannot match and exceed what sony offers then all they will be is a footnote beside the wiiU.

The problem with that is I can find you development source articles that say the opposite ;)

Are those to be discounted because they go against what one site is saying? This is why I say we are better off just looking at the games. They're the only things that can stand above the noise and console warrior stuff. :D

And, important, very important, nothing is set in stone until these consoles are fully revealed. In that same article you site, it states that sony is all of a sudden now trying to get their 4GB of GDDR5 to match Microsoft's apparent 8GB of DDR3? This late in the game? 4 more GB of GDDR5? That'd be nuts, and I hope it's true, because I don't care about any of these companies' bottom lines. If they want to go nuts for us, then so be it :D

It isn't one site though. General consensus based on the most recent specs suggest the PS4 on paper is more powerful. Even "up their own arse" edge magazine have said the same. It'll probably mean very little in regards to multiplat titles anyway though

Basically they are saying real terms it will be slightly more powerfull, just like this gen with the ps3/360, the differences will be next to nothing with multiplats the same and each consoles exclusives showing off what each can do best.

It's a consensus developing based on the same specs that everybody has seen. However, there are things about these machines that none of us know. I agree, based on the specs shown, the PS4 is more powerful. You need very little technical know how to spot that. We all have eyes and we see the same leaks. However, there is a lot of stuff that we simply don't know yet, and I know developers personally that have said there are huge omissions in the leaks.

Or perhaps with some more context, people might better understand why the new xbox will be more capable than some think. The details really do matter here. For example, one of the more recent leaks on the PS4 gpu is that instead of it being 18 dedicated compute units for graphics rendering, it seems that it's actually 14, closer to the rumored 12 on the Xbox GPU. It's stated that 4 of those computer units on the PS4 might be less capable, but more geared for compute work? It's hard to say what it really means, but they claim the PS4 gpu was balanced at 14 compute units. And the xbox, which has yet to be fully detailed, has components designed to help it with other tasks, too. In the end, I suspect it may be a wash, but we honestly don't know. There's even talk that the Xbox CPU is more beefed up in comparison to the PS4 CPU, and that they aren't as identical as some say.

These are all things that have been discussed by some credible people, but we don't know anything for certain. And internally Microsoft documentation avoids calling the things on their gpu "compute units", instead calling them "shader cores", which might mean nothing at all, or, as some have speculated, it could mean that they've neglected compute entirely on their gpu, and have optimized it purely for graphics rendering. The new xbox seems built less around raw power, but around efficiency, and efficiency done right can beat raw power. That isn't to say the PS4 won't be very efficient, but there's just too much out there. Some speculate that maybe the 4 CU out of the 18 on the PS4 GPU were somehow added in response to the beefier CPU on the new xbox, or the beefier CPU was maybe added in response to the 4 more specialized compute units in the ps4. What does this all tell us? It's a maze trying to figure all this crap out, so it's better to let the games do the convincing lol :)

Again, I have no idea, but we have to remember that once the games start being shown, and we get past all this specs stuff, who has what specs won't really matter.

Taking a random post from Beyond3d that not so much talks about power, but talks a little bit about why it's important we have details on these machines. Details tell the bigger picture.

That quote is from edge. General consensus across the board now is the PS4 is the more powerful console. It's simpler, it has a more powerful GPU, it has faster RAM and it conserves less resources for the OS. Aint seen a single positive leak for the 720 in months.

I don't know, I think we're jumping to conclusions. We don't know anything for sure yet until more is officially revealed. Leaks can't be taken as absolute evidence of anything, because these leaks are based on things that are, in some ways, still subject to change. The very edge article you cite, mentions that sony is considering raising their ram from 4GB to 8GB to match Microsoft. If that's the case, why wouldn't Microsoft also be considering changes, too, or maybe have already made changes that aren't leaked?

The R ram in ps3 was faster than the GDDR 3 inside the Xbox 360, you do know that, right? The new Xbox rumored to have twice the ram capacity at 8GB is not significant? I don't know about anyone else, but I opt for more ram over faster ram everytime, and there are some developers that prefer more ram as well. Do you have any idea how many devs have requested 8GB of ram? Bethesda, Crytek, even Square Enix at one point did the same, I believe. Dice, I think, also requested 8GB. Just because the PS4 has faster ram, doesn't mean the Xbox's 8GB ram advantage is insignificant.

And then here is where things get even crazier. Some are suggesting Microsoft is reserving 3GB of that ram for their OS, and sony is only reserving 512MB of their 4GB. What if Microsoft isn't reserving 3GB of ram for their OS and the numbers out there are way too high? And even if they were, that number can, and likely will, shrink over the life of the console, freeing up more for games. And I know memory bandwidth is important, and the PS4 is said to have an advantage there. However, Microsoft hasn't exactly twiddled their thumbs there, either. There's a reason they have apparently added low latency ESRAM, and who knows what else to help their system. What you might be referring to as positive leaks may not be a sign that they haven't happened, it just may be a sign that you're looking for all the wrong things. Every number we had mostly between ps3 and 360 similarly suggested the ps3 was quite a bit stronger than the xbox 360. I don't think that has panned out quite like those specs implied they would, because there was far more detail that was being left out with the 360's edram, the unified shader architecture, the ease of development on the 360, easier to work with cpu, what have you. I wouldn't be jumping to conclusions too soon. IGN, for example, put out an article where they supposedly talked with multiple developers, and they were pretty much unanimous in saying that supposedly the new xbox was easier to develop for.