Interview from Heavenly Sword Developer (interesting things said)

Optimusv2
Optimusv2
Since 7402 Days
http://psinext.e-mpire.com/index.php?categoryid=3&...


He says their NAO32 method of HDR can be considered a real HDR format and other tidbits like this.

Marco: Correct. The main idea behind NAO32 is that we want to trade shading power to regain memory space and bandwidth (very precious resources on a console). So instead of encoding our HDR colors into a FP16 or FP32 frame buffer, we devised a scheme to use RSX pixel shading units to convert an RGB color in a CIE Luv color that only requires a common RGBA8 frame buffer (4 bytes per pixel, half the space of a FP16 pixel) to be fully stored.

The quality of this format is really outstanding. Even if it uses half the space/bandwidth of common HDR rendering solutions, it really makes no compromises at all in image quality.


PSINext: After getting to play the game at E3, it's clear that a number of intensive effects such as HDR - courtesy of NAO32 of course - and full soft shadowing are in place. What can you tell us about the levels of anti-aliasing and anisotropic filtering, if any, Ninja Theory is utilizing for Heavenly Sword?

Marco: Yep, shadowing is completely dynamic and everything can cast/receive shadows. Soft shadows are achieved taking 12 jittered samples per pixel. Antialiasing is set to 4X (multisampling), but quality wise is not as good as it could be; we need to work on it, and hopefully it will improve over the next several months.

Anisotropic filtering is being used on some specific meshes (floors, walls, etc...) and AFAIK is set to 8x + trilinear


Now whats in this next set of text has to be the most controversial comment in the interview (quite frankly I don't buy it at all)

PSINext: Have any internal resolution and frame-rate targets been set yet for HS?

Marco: Our target resolution for Heavenly Sword is 720p with 4x MSAA, which we've already achieved. The frame rate target is not something completely set in stone at this time. Though our E3 demo was running at over 30 frames per second, I'm willing to bet the final game will run at 30 FPS. Hopefully this will allow us to push even more effects on screen.


PSINext: As previously discussed, beyond it's high quality one of the primary reasons for the use of NAO32 is that it saves bandwidth in a bandwidth-hungry environment. In the future do you feel RSX will be at a disadvantage to Xenos when it comes to framebuffer effects due to the 128-bit bus and lack of eDRAM?

Marco: Not at all; in fact for many framebuffer effects I believe RSX will have an edge over Xenos. Don't want to go into details, but let me just point out that RSX is connected to two seperate buses, not just one.


I don't know about this at all what do you think acert? Also this guy frequents beyond3D it seems so I guess we can say we know how the majority feel about the ps3 and the 360 ;) When he makes such a comment he should MOST CERTAINLY go into detail.






In reply to

[b] Never judge a game too harshly via screenshots or videos, because they are in no way capable of properly representing what the game truly looks like were you to see it running in front of you on a 360 [/b]

Shawnzee
Shawnzee
Since 7521 Days
I think I speak for alot of people when I say, "huh?"
In reply to
Slabs
Slabs
Since 7540 Days
720p and 30fps does not sit well with Sony's claims.
In reply to
lukasblue
lukasblue
Since 7256 Days
Two separate buses? I guess he means 1. gpu memory, 2. cell (cell memory). I dont think gpu will use cell memory.
I think hdr was wrong in HS. Also no way it was 4aa, jagies everywhere.
But the point is that rsx is downgraided to 128-bit memory bus.
In reply to
hasanahmad
hasanahmad
Since 7525 Days
Dont trust this Marco guy , he is the same guy on B3D who said EdRam is a useless technology and fought with Dave Baumann by saying Xbox 360 cant do any AF and someone responded that if you look at 90% of PS3 games at E3, none of them had AF either. He is stil pissed over at Microsoft overlooking the game and frequently comes on saying the Xbox 360 GPU is overall weaker than PS3 GPU when he doesnt even have the 360 Kit, thier a 2nd party PS3 developer.
In reply to

360 = 299 + 100 HDDVD = 399 | Wii = 199
Wii60 = 399 + 199 = 600$

Freddman
Freddman
Since 7452 Days
Posted by Shawnzee
I think I speak for alot of people when I say, "huh?"
yea, what does this mean in plain english? :P
In reply to
RAZurrection
RAZurrection
Since 7382 Days
Posted by hasanahmad
Dont trust this Marco guy , he is the same guy on B3D who said EdRam is a useless technology and fought with Dave Baumann by saying Xbox 360 cant do any AF and someone responded that if you look at 90% of PS3 games at E3, none of them had AF either. He is stil pissed over at Microsoft overlooking the game and frequently comes on saying the Xbox 360 GPU is overall weaker than PS3 GPU when he doesnt even have the 360 Kit, thier a 2nd party PS3 developer.
I find it ironic that he states he's not concerned with bandwidth, but they created a HDR solution to mitigate bandwidth consumption.

BTW Hasan do you have a link to the B3D argument? I'd be interested in reading what happened.
In reply to
hasanahmad
hasanahmad
Since 7525 Days
looks like Dave and nAo (Marco) are at it again:

Dave:
I think that does needs some more details, because the only element discussed there, two seprate busses, isn't actually that different between RSX and Xenos.

nAo: All details are already there since I was talking about frame buffer effects: in the vast majority of cases you'll end up being texture bw limited and last time I checked Xenos does not have 2 separate busses to fetch textures.

Dave: True enough, but unless you just aren't ouputting any pixels at all then it probably has a greater local texture bandwidth in the first place.

nAo: Sure, but as soon as you get serious with texture bw (thus you are texture bw limited) the ratio between color and texture bw is so small that it gets almost not relevant as the color bw just costs as much as another texel to sample..
Another important factor here is texture cache, complex post process effects require big texture caches cause they use wide fllter kernels and/or non coherent sampling patterns.


Dave: Because Xenos has a dedicated bus for pixel bandwidth.

The two busses on PS3 are the main Cell/R at 25.6GB/s (which FlexIO can access at a lower rate) and the 22.4GB/s for RSX/GDDR3 - here you can achieve a number of combinations, for example: Cell/R - system, RSX/GDDR3 - texture / pixel; Cell/R - system / texture, RSX/GDDR3 - texture / pixel; etc. With Xenon we have a 22.4GB/s UMA for system and graphics, and another 32GB/s(or 256GB/s) purely for pixel.



As you can see, nAo is trying his level best to diss 360 GPU
In reply to

360 = 299 + 100 HDDVD = 399 | Wii = 199
Wii60 = 399 + 199 = 600$

hasanahmad
hasanahmad
Since 7525 Days
Posted by RAZurrection
I find it ironic that he states he's not concerned with bandwidth, but they created a HDR solution to mitigate bandwidth consumption.

BTW Hasan do you have a link to the B3D argument? I'd be interested in reading what happened.
its a couple of months old argument on B3d. i cant find the link
In reply to

360 = 299 + 100 HDDVD = 399 | Wii = 199
Wii60 = 399 + 199 = 600$

RAZurrection
RAZurrection
Since 7382 Days
In reply to
lukasblue
lukasblue
Since 7256 Days
So, in plain english , they are faking HDR in ps3 !?
In reply to
hasanahmad
hasanahmad
Since 7525 Days
Posted by lukasblue
So, in plain english , they are faking HDR in ps3 !?
yes because they cant do HDR + AA at the same time
In reply to

360 = 299 + 100 HDDVD = 399 | Wii = 199
Wii60 = 399 + 199 = 600$

docLEXfisti
docLEXfisti
Since 7628 Days
what about the famous 120 fps in 1080p in every game (Kutaragi Statement). Lies, lies, lies . . .... but I will buy one though . . ... .
In reply to

the only tyrant I accept is my inner voice

Shawnzee
Shawnzee
Since 7521 Days
This message is in "Boulet Time" (TM), If you still *really* want to see it, click here
Posted by hasanahmad
Dont trust this Marco guy , he is the same guy on B3D who said EdRam is a useless technology and fought with Dave Baumann by saying Xbox 360 cant do any AF and someone responded that if you look at 90% of PS3 games at E3, none of them had AF either. He is stil pissed over at Microsoft overlooking the game and frequently comes on saying the Xbox 360 GPU is overall weaker than PS3 GPU when he doesnt even have the 360 Kit, thier a 2nd party PS3 developer.
It was that guy? I read that post @ B3D, that guy is a tard.
Optimusv2
Optimusv2
Since 7402 Days
LOL wow you learn alot of cool stuff reading the beyond3D forums. Alot developers post on there? Or is it just people that know what they are talking about or THINK they know what they are talking about? Tell me guys how reliable is the confusing stuff they are saying?
In reply to

[b] Never judge a game too harshly via screenshots or videos, because they are in no way capable of properly representing what the game truly looks like were you to see it running in front of you on a 360 [/b]

Ylathan
Ylathan
Since 7229 Days
Kutaragi only mentioned games could run at 120 FPS, he never said all would.

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=...

With a vast battlefield involving hundreds to thousands of soldiers like Heavenly Sword you have to sacrifice framerate. Everyone expected this and that doesnt mean say a fighting game with 2 characters isnt capable of much higher numbers.

Optimus beyond3D guys like to think they know everything, but the simple truth is its exactly like gamefaqs only the fanboys have technical knowledge. Sad really but true. The two GPUs are actually of pretty comparable strength.
In reply to
wuffyx
wuffyx
Since 7488 Days
Posted by Ylathan
Kutaragi only mentioned games could run at 120 FPS, he never said all would.

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=...

With a vast battlefield involving hundreds to thousands of soldiers like Heavenly Sword you have to sacrifice framerate. Everyone expected this and that doesnt mean say a fighting game with 2 characters isnt capable of much higher numbers.

Optimus beyond3D guys like to think they know everything, but the simple truth is its exactly like gamefaqs only the fanboys have technical knowledge. Sad really but true. The two GPUs are actually of pretty comparable strength.
So in the end Kutaragi is all just HYPE, eh?

The truth is you cannot compare both GPUs yet since the PS3 is not yet out of the market. It's not a matter of the B3D not being smart enough.
In reply to
Optimusv2
Optimusv2
Since 7402 Days
In regards to comparable strength I don't know. I know the 360 gpu likely doesn't massacre the ps3 gpu by a longshot, but the 360 gpu clearly has to be capable of things the rsx isn't. All that edram bandwidth, unified shaders, the number of shader units available depending on how much are needed for any vertex work.
In reply to

[b] Never judge a game too harshly via screenshots or videos, because they are in no way capable of properly representing what the game truly looks like were you to see it running in front of you on a 360 [/b]

Acert93 - Mr. Bad Cop
Acert93
Since 7480 Days
Posted by Ylathan
The two GPUs are actually of pretty comparable strength.
Actually the architecturally very different and their strengths lie in different areas. To get the best out of each takes a lot of work and special consideration... and time. They may be able to put up similar results in many situations, but how this would be obtained is quite differently. Of course right now both are being used minimally in regards to featureset...

It takes 24-28 months to build a game from the ground up, even longer if you do your own engine and tools. Xenos has been in dev hands almost 10 months now. Looking at the core features we see many have not been touched: Hardware tesselation, vertex texturing, SM3.0, etc. Up until a couple months ago there were some API issues with tiling. It is a totally new hardware paradigm and devs are still struggling to get SM2.0-only games out. The first SM2.0 ONLY game is Oblivion. SM3.0 is minimally exploited at this time.

--

As for the interview nAo has never been really hot on Xenos even before he worked with Ninja Theory (he has not worked with the 360). It just does not line up with his vision of a game engine.

That said, note that his comparisons are all, "We did this to alleviate a bottleneck on RSX" -- yet nowhere in the discussion is the 360 given equal credit. i.e. "Ok, you spent 12 months tweaking the PS3 -- what would happen if you spent the same 12 months on the 360 doing the same thing?"

And that really is an issue IMO. With the PS3 due to the segmented memory and the bandwidth constraints devs have to do a lot of extra work on things that "just work" on Xenos. e.g. With the fillrate a developer could move their alpha blends of certain objects to CELL. Ok, but now you are taking CPU performance away from the game engine to make up for the GPU AND it requires more work. Ditto HDR. NOA32 takes shader cycles. It does not appear overly expensive, but again you are talking extra time and taking performance to do it.

Ninja Theory is a 2nd party being funded by Sony for exclusive PS3 content. They are not working on any 360 titles and they have blogged a number of confrontational posts in the past about how Xbox kung fu game sold poorly and was critically chastized was the result of MS's spinelessness, etc... That does not mean they are wrong, but it does mean they are just one opinion and should be treated as such.

I personally tend to consider what multi-platform devs say in regards to comparisons, and in regards to each system and how it is being used in exclusive content I listen to exclusive devs about their OWN system. The comments from Starbreeze, id Software, Valve, etc... are all multi-platform and tell us a lot. The CoD2 gushed on the 360, NT gushes on the PS3. It is what you would expect.

Back to the article, some of the comments are really vague. e.g. He would not give reasons why (i.e. NDA) he thought certain things. At other points, like the memory architecture, it was vague.

But as I was recently pointing out, numbers tend to lie. e.g. Fillrate

RSX 4.4B pixels/s
Xenos 4.0B pixels/s

Here is the catch: That number is cut in half when RSX enables 4xMSAA. Xenos remains the same (i.e. no logic penalty). Further, Xenos ALWAYS has that fillrate because it has 256GB/s of memory bandwidth for pixel fill. It NEVER is delayed.

RSX is not so clean. If ALL the GDDR3 is dedicated to fillrate it tops out at 2.8B pixel/s. And that leaves no memory bandwidth for the framebuffer, backbuffers (which have high bandwidth needs), texturing, geometry, etc.

Xenos? It has enough bandwidth for full fillrate with 4xMSAA, FP10 (HDR), and so forth. Further, Xenos has a huge Z fill because unlike any GPU on the market it can do 2 Z samples per clock, even with AA enabled (with 4xMSAA it does 64 z samples a clock).

This same type of scenario applies to texturing (e.g. Xenos' TMUs are totally decoupled and, unlike RSX, do not require PS ALUs being allocated to texture), flops (Xenos not only load balances but with an array of 'small' ALUs is very fine grained for very high utilization and Xenos is also very threaded), shader model (both are SM3.0, but Xenos batch size is 64 whereas RSX is over 1000 meaning Xenos is a lot faster at pixel shader dynamix branching), etc

It is easy to say: Xenos performs 217GFLOPs and RSX is 255GFLOPs, so they are close with an edge to RSX. But that totally ignores architecture (bandwidth, utilization, featureset, bottlenecks) and ease of use. Xenos is clearly designed for the console space and console problems. it also resolves some big problems natively; e.g. FP16 for HDR is 2x as expensive as Int8 and uses more bandwidth. Xenos has FP10 so you get the benefits of FP10 with the expense of Int8. No work arounds and time invested, no extra costs. It just works. All things even FP10 saves a lot of resources over FP16 which means in theory a FP10-system could need less raw power to get the same end result. Featureset is pretty important in that regard.

Of course the article never touches on how such bandwidth could be leveraged for the Xbox 360--and why would it? PLAYSTATION site, PLAYSTATION developer.

It does not mean it is unfair, it just means it is only one angle and opinion.

Of course if you asked a 360 dev they would have their own little tricks. Not to mention it has a lot of features (curved surfaces, tesselation, vertex texturing, coherant memory reads and writes, fine-grained SM3.0 that is much, much faster at pixel dynamic branching... in the order of 4-10x faster in some DB bottlenecked situations).

So take what any dev says in context and with a grain of salt. These interviews are good PR. MS does the same thing. But there is always more to the story.

What I can say is that it is nice to see PS3 overcoming some of the larger hurdles RSX presents. I look forward to tesselation and displacement mapping work arounds running on CELL as well. Hopefully Sony incorperates NOA32, Tesselation, DM, etc... into the SDK and allows these things to be accessed through an API as "featuresets" if they wish. Making next-gen features standard and easily accessible is important and with the current state of Sony tools devs could use the help.
In reply to

Now that I retired I can play more MGS games.

Optimusv2
Optimusv2
Since 7402 Days
Wow Acert amazingly well written thats exactly what I would've said if you didn't beat me to it, but you know ummm *thinks of excuse* the dog ate my keyboard... (don't ask how I typed this) =P
In reply to

[b] Never judge a game too harshly via screenshots or videos, because they are in no way capable of properly representing what the game truly looks like were you to see it running in front of you on a 360 [/b]

Sgt1576
Sgt1576
Since 7284 Days
Great post Acert.
In reply to

"Use Humlilty to make them Haughty"-Sun Tzu

mojovonious
mojovonious
Since 7462 Days
I've still yet to see a game that looks better than Gears of War. Heavenly Sword looks amazing, but not every dev will put that much time and effort into faking HDR.
In reply to
Shawnzee
Shawnzee
Since 7521 Days
And not every dev has that many people working on a game, I heard Ninja Theory has nearly 100 people working on HS.
In reply to
mojovonious
mojovonious
Since 7462 Days
It looks damn, pretty, I just hope it plays as well, cause really, the PS3 has nothing at launch to interest most people.
In reply to
Optimusv2
Optimusv2
Since 7402 Days
Heavenly Sword will be the best ps3 launch title if it isn't then I'll be in complete and utter surprise. Especially if they deliver on the amazing environments they plan to have you fight in.
In reply to

[b] Never judge a game too harshly via screenshots or videos, because they are in no way capable of properly representing what the game truly looks like were you to see it running in front of you on a 360 [/b]

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