2007-04-10 01:19:26

I'm on.. woot!

2007-04-10 01:58:11 In reply to GriftGFX (2007-04-09 22:47:43)

[quote=GriftGFX]
You guys can defend it as a sound business decision all day but it's actually a pretty short sighted one.. and Epic knows this. Do you guys actually think that Epic doesn't know what they're doing or how to stay in touch with a fanbase that loves them? Mark Rein isn't stupid -- and Epic knows their business.


No offense Griff, but you don't seem to have a good grasp of the business principles involved. MS has nothing to gain by giving it away and many, many things to lose not the least of which is money. Making it free will greatly reduce the perceived value of future DLC. Free DLC will NOT gain them any new customers because the existing popularity is so high.

2007-04-10 02:38:28

If they'll be free later on, I have no big problem with it. It could be worse.

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2007-04-10 03:11:01 In reply to alimokrane (2007-04-09 23:03:55)

Isn't Epic the main developer responsible for why there is 512MB inside the Xbox 360? Epic did say it themselves that it costed Microsoft 1 billion dollars. I'm not complaining about it of course as we are the ones that win, but if Epic was as key a factor in Microsoft's decision as they said they were to make 512MB happen then perhaps there is more to the story. Or maybe there isn't.

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Hironobu Sakaguchi is coming back to reclaim the throne :)

October 20th 2007 (A good day)

2007-04-10 03:33:01 In reply to GriftGFX (2007-04-09 22:47:43)

I think you're right, and the main reason fo that I think is that the PC-market is different from the gameconsolemarket.. On PC games and their online communities last longer then on gamesconsoles.. Only now with Halo etc we seen a somewhat longer live for a game and it's community on a gameconsole, but MS still has that short term gameconsole attitude towards to their Xbox project I think.. They know people won't be playing games on their console for 3+ years, so they don't care what the long term effect is.. This whole split the community thing by chearging for extra maps fits perfectly in that short term buisnessmodel they use.. In the end we know MS is in it for the money, not because they love us gamers so much.. Same goes for Sony en Nintendo etc aswell offcourse, but at least they are better at hiding their real intensions..

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2007-04-10 04:41:44

There actually is a lot to gain from giving away free content -- and it doesn't take a masters degree to grasp that concept. You guys really aren't giving Epic enough credit. When Mark Rein says that they believe free content is the best way to max. profits for Gears he's not just speaking nonsense.. he has a legit point.

It's a simple concept really -- you reward your customers and you are rewarded with higher sales and customer loyalty. Nickle and diming your key users is actually a pretty short sighted way to go about things.

I mean -- it's also perfectly reasonable to think you can charge for avatars, themes and simple addons like skins/models but that doesn't actually make it perfectly wise. It harms the perception of MS as a company that wants to give back to their users and it makes them look.. well.. greedy.

And yes I do understand their investments (losses) in this industry and I understand that they need to recoup those losses -- but they're already getting there by selling software -- they really don't need to charge 2.50 for every map thats worth your time.

If they were thinking more about the long term they'd be thinking more about their image as well and what that can do to make or break their position as a market leader. It really is not as simple as saying, "We can charge for this -- so we should."

Perhaps thats true in some cases (GeoWars even) but when you have a game thats already moved more than 4 million copies.. there's not much harm in maxing out your userbase by giving a little back to your users.

The console market is different -- but not so much so that you can't give a little back for such success.. and the sad fact is that this microtransaction model is already poluting the PC space and damaging long running industry trends (like expansion packs). Gamers need to consider the long standing impact that MS will have in this space and MS needs to consider the fact that there are actually gamers out there with the ability to look past the right now.. and they need think about how that can ultimately impact their business. A little good will can go a long way.

But anyway -- annex is fun.. gg Phaethon.

2007-04-10 04:48:49 In reply to GriftGFX (2007-04-10 04:41:44)

SPARTAANNS, prepare to order take out from HELL!

Whatever happened to the mods vs the users? Wasn't that supposed to go down the week after the superbowl?

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Jim Rome: "Nobody owns anybody like Florida owns OSU."

2007-04-10 04:52:51

Yeah.. and maybe we should see if Roxy still wants to organize such a thing.. I think he gave up. But you're welcome to join up with my crew when we play, I'm sure we'll be on a lot more now.

I actually think Warzone/Execution is better for pure team play (so far at least) but Annex should breath some new life into the game and it's good for the constant action.

2007-04-10 06:20:19 In reply to GriftGFX (2007-04-10 04:41:44)

[quote=GriftGFX]There actually is a lot to gain from giving away free content -- and it doesn't take a masters degree to grasp that concept. You guys really aren't giving Epic enough credit. When Mark Rein says that they believe free content is the best way to max. profits for Gears he's not just speaking nonsense.. he has a legit point.

Again you are showing your lack of understanding here. Epic and Mark Rein are irrelevant to the discussion. Even if they weren't, Mark is still wrong. His ideas might be viable on the PC, although that is debatable, but for the console space that is sub-optimal, especially since they have already given out 2 pieces of free content.

2007-04-10 06:54:40

They have not given away free content -- they gave away sponsored content and there is actually a pretty significant difference. Epic is right.

It's actually pretty straight forward. The only thing they have to lose here is what is wrong with the platform in the first place. They should not assume that their position is here to stay -- it is damn short sighted.

But keep assuming that I'm missing part of the picture here.. or that MS is being "very generous" by giving away this content long after it has sold the optimal amount anyway. That is not generous -- but that is exactly what MS wants you to think. This does not effect me as much as it will MS in the future. Good will can actually be good for business.. and greed, despite the immediate returns can have a negative impact on your image and thus your sales. It is short sighted.

Why should we care how this effects the perception of value anyway? How about actual value? Add-on maps are nothing new -- nickle and diming your core userbase is.

Regardless.. it's a compromise and I do appreciate that much. It could be worse.. not much granted.. but at least the mp game won't be perminantly torn in two, which is more than can be said for a lot of other games.

2007-04-10 10:39:28

I totally agree with GriftGFX.. MS is hurting it's own image by doing this.. Trying to get every cent out of me as a gamer for every little piece of content doesn't make me wanna buy more games at all.. If a game does get good support with free content I'm much more likly to buy the next installment in the series, that's the longterm thinking GriftGFX is also talking about.. And that why companies like Epic, ID, and Valve etc got so big on PC, because they keep supporting their games with free new content..

Problem with gameconsoles (especially the Xbox 360 with a closed system like Xbox Live) is that the platformholder controls everything and there's no competition at all from free community created content.. They can charge what they want because as a gamer you have no choice, either you pay or you get nothing.. And since a lot of gamers do want stuff when they like a game, they'll pay.. Even I did it a couple of times already despite it's against my principles..

The thing I'm really mad about is that MS obviously is forcing everyone to charge for their content on the Xbox Live marketplace, or at least attach a sponsor (so that it doesn't appear totally free).. Even Epic, a gamedeveloper with a long history of providing free content to the buyers of their games now has to obey.. The whole MS has the right to do it because they spent so much money on this game excuse is BS imho.. GoW sold millions, so they are already making money off the main game itself..

And I'll say it again.. Wanna charge for everything on the marketplace? That fine by me, but then they have to make Xbox Live (Gold) completly free imho!! Stop the greedy kapitalistic BS!

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2007-04-10 12:27:52

The thing with this is the knowledge that Epic wanted to give these away for free. If we didn't know that, the compromise reached (kudos to Epic for getting there) would seem entirely reasonable. I certainly don't have a problem with paying a couple of quid for a few maps.

MS preventing Epic giving them away is a little disturbing though. I'd have been happier if they were sponsored again.

On the flip side, there's a bigger picture here which we can't always see. Whilst on the face of it, it looks to be a nickel and dime the consumer at every oppourtunity (and of course there is an element of that) MS isn't going to make a ton of money on this. The revenue sharing agreement with Epic will be generous in the latter's favour. Out of 4m copies sold, only 60% of those are on live and 70% of them use Marketplace. Only a certain % of those will be Gold and still play Gears online and not moved on to other games. A large portion of that userbase is going to wait till they're free.

That is still a ton of people, yes, but when you take out Epic's cut it's a complete blip on Microsoft's P&L for this game. And whilst Gears only cost $10m to make, that doesn't factor in Epic's investment in building the engine, UE3. MS investment in securing it as an exclusive (Epic were surely moneyhatted for this) or the marketing spend (huge!).

What I'm saying here is that this is only partially financially motivated. It doesn't make sense for it to be completely financially motivated and Mark Rein will gladly tell you why.

What developers in this industry need is alternate business models. Marketplace is one of those, the purchase of Massive is a way of developing another. If the end game is to build marketplace up to a level where it can support Xbox Live itself (i.e. no more subscription costs) then you could see some logic in their thinking here.

Ultimately that is the Sony business model which will fund PSN. Do not be surprised to see similar sharp practice there as they've no other revenue model to fall back on and they haven't had a few years of subscriptions to build their infrastructure.

I'm not saying this is the way it's going down, or even trying to defend them. I would encourage anyone who feels strongly about it to vote with their wallets as that's the only way to make any impact. Just something to think about.

2007-04-10 12:28:28

who cares!!!!


HALO 3!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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2007-04-10 13:11:26 In reply to Heretic (2007-04-10 12:28:28)

Get out of here!!! / kidding .....
:D

2007-04-10 13:16:49 In reply to alimokrane (2007-04-10 13:11:26)

haha

true.

i'm out!

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If you're one of the millions of people without a Blue Dragon, put this as your avatar (http://www.tourfilms.com/bd22.gif). Please, you can fight the good fight for BD.

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2007-04-10 18:46:36

Yeah, im getting Halo 3 trailer now.

The GOW game type is good.

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