Forums-> Main forum-> Kodu: Make Your Own Games on XBLA (Boku): << 1 2 3 4 >>
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FreeSwag
FreeSwag
Depuis 2554 Jours

03/07/2009 à 14:14:08

Not to dig too much more in the "comparison" between Kodu and LBP, but I think there needs to be a bit of clarification to exactly what LBP is. The more apt comparison to LBP, would be comparing it directly to Far Cry 2. Like Far Cry 2, LBP is a dedicated game, with hours and hours of professional developed gameplay experience to be had by the gamer. At which point if you are happy with that, you can just leave it alone and walk away.

Or, you can get an near infinite amount of usage from both titles, by taking advantage of the user created engine present in both titles. The user generated creation tools in LBP are pretty much what most PC gamers would call a level editor. They have been around on PC shooters for almost 15 years now, and are quite popular. What Media Molecule did with LBP, was bring a level editor to a side-scrolling platformer. I do not recall that ever being done before (at least not on console), and I that really was what all the excitement was about - and rightly so, more games should have level editors; and they shouldn't be relegated exclusively to shooters and RTS. Far Cry 2 has one of the best level editors ever to grace a game, much less grace one on console. It is every bit as much as awesome as the user creation tools in LBP, and in many ways, even moreso. If only you could create a single-player experience with the Far Cry 2 level editor, instead of just multiplayer, and it may have gotten just as much attention as LBP - it certainly deserves so.

Kodu on the other hand, is more along the lines of what PC gamers would call a mod. A mod is much different than a level editor. In a mod you get a level editor, but you also get the ability to create and tweek AI, and all the interactions between the bots, NPCs and player. In almost every respect, working a mod, is every much as creating a real game. Case and point, the original Half Life and the original Team Fortress, both are completely different mods made from id Software's Quake.

With mods, you can take a given engine, and create a completely different game. With a level editor, you can customize and create your own levels, but you cannot change the timing and collisions and AI and or even the base geometry, all the things that make individually different games, unique. And that really is the comparison between LBP an Kodu. The former is a game with a level editor built in, and the latter is a complete game engine in which you can build completely different games.

As has been stated before, any other comparison going any further than that, really is not doing either product justice.

That said, as much as I enjoy toying around with Kodu, it only makes me wish more than ever, that Ubisoft Montreal would take the Dunia Engine, and the level editor from Far Cry 2, and create something very similar to Kodu with it. They have already got quite possible one of the best level editors I have ever seen in a videogame - anyone notice how much Sony's upcoming ModNation Racers borrows from the Far Cry 2 level editor? The only thing missing from that editor, is giving the gamer the ability to change all the pertinent stuff like AI and inter-character interaction. If Ubisoft were to take that engine, with that editor fleshed out in a similar fashion as Kodu, and packaged it up nice and pretty, I would actually pay full price for that.

Oh well, I guess a boy can dream.

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"Blogging is like masturbating into a mirror while you videotape yourself, so you can watch it later, while you masturbate " - LEWIS BLACK (2008)

Megido
Megido
Depuis 2656 Jours

03/07/2009 à 14:15:23

I really have a hard time understanding WHO kodu is meant for. The graphics and look of the game seems fitted for kids that are probably too young to do anything advanced with it, but the simplicity and cutesy-factor feels like sort of a "meh" for older players that want more freedom in what they create (at least that's how it feels for me).

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El perro, el perro es mi corazón
El gato, el gato, el gato es no bueno
Cilantro es cantante
Cilantro es muy famoso
Cilantro es el hombre con el queso del diablo!

GriftGFX
He can also
ban your ass!
GriftGFX - He can also<br>ban your ass!
Depuis 3330 Jours

03/07/2009 à 17:24:13

Hey, I wouldn't underestimate the intelligence of children.

When I was still ranging in the single digits, I was already pretty familiar with BASIC-A.. and it wasn't long after that when I was learning Pascal and C.

And I don't remember much from back then. So I reckon I was smarter.

Acert93
Mr. Bad Cop Acert93 - Mr. Bad Cop
Depuis 3301 Jours

03/07/2009 à 18:23:27 En réponse à Jollipop (03/07/2009 à 14:12:42)

Posté par Jollipop
They are obviously different in what they provide but they go after the same community, build your own experience ... so yes they do have a lot in common, so I will compare the two.
Then at least play Kodu, go through all the tutorials and expose the depth of the title, and impliment a variety of genres (RTS, platformers, 2D platformers, shooter, FPS, mini-games ala Mario Party) with a variety of friendly and hostile NPC and make a judgement. Kodu has some bugs, needs more features, and isn't pretty. It also doesn't have a core game mechanic, like LBP, to essentially MOD (i.e. NOT free form game creation) so it takes more thought, planning, and design considerations. But the reason the former points (more features for example) isn't because it is inept or ill-features, to the contrary it is so deep that you can see your are very close to having a perfectly suitable indie engine. Instead it is a "party game engine" and "proof of concept" engine with a logical object oriented GUI language that is extremely accessible, and has a very keen inductive teaching method along the principles of design, management, and programming.

LBP fizzled largely due to the lack of ingenuity and creativity of users. Kodu will fail more so on this front, but the opportunity to those with some ideas and the patience to impliment them will be rewarded. if people are going to compare LBP allows you to mod an existing game that is already a solid platformer wheras Kodu has no essential or refined game mechanic. On the inverse LBP is quite limited in terms of game design variety, NPC interaction, and game objectives. In this regards Kodu is many times more robust. It is only the things Kodu lacks (streaming levels together, more fine-grained/in-depth control of the most minute detail one could imagine, e.g. turn acceleration, bullet inertia, etc) cannot be expected of the first release of the tool and would skew some of the point by offering too many features making the game inwieldly.

Now that I think about it we should have some Kodu contests...

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deftangel
Hot stuff! deftangel - Hot stuff!
Depuis 3198 Jours

05/07/2009 à 13:20:51 En réponse à Jollipop (03/07/2009 à 14:12:42)

Posté par Jollipop
They are obviously different in what they provide but they go after the same community, build your own experience ... so yes they do have a lot in common, so I will compare the two.
No they don't. Kodu is primarily an educational tool. LittleBigPlanet is primarily a game. You can play the latter without taking an interest in the "build your own experience" parts at all and frankly, that's what most people did. Kodu originated from Microsoft Research, not a game studio.

LittleBigPlanet's primary flaw was it was too difficult to find the good levels that did exist, at least initially.

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FreeSwag
FreeSwag
Depuis 2554 Jours

05/07/2009 à 13:56:58 En réponse à deftangel (05/07/2009 à 13:20:51)

Posté par deftangel
No they don't. Kodu is primarily an educational tool. LittleBigPlanet is primarily a game. You can play the latter without taking an interest in the "build your own experience" parts at all and frankly, that's what most people did. Kodu originated from Microsoft Research, not a game studio.

LittleBigPlanet's primary flaw was it was too difficult to find the good levels that did exist, at least initially.
Didn't help any when Sony began to pull some of the best levels off the server for risk of copyright infringement. That was a real disappointment.

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"Blogging is like masturbating into a mirror while you videotape yourself, so you can watch it later, while you masturbate " - LEWIS BLACK (2008)

alimokrane
alimokrane
Depuis 3260 Jours

08/07/2009 à 15:42:36

Eurogamer Plays around with Kodu
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/kodu-game-lab-ar...

dcdelgado
dcdelgado
Depuis 3190 Jours

08/07/2009 à 16:29:56 En réponse à alimokrane (08/07/2009 à 15:42:36)

Posté par alimokrane
That was a good read, damn i did not realize it could do RPG's also, i'll have to try and find some time to play around with this tool.

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** Yes We CAN!! **

Kaz Hirai - Sony

"We don't provide the 'easy to program for' console that [developers] want, because 'easy to program for' means that anybody will be able to take advantage of pretty much what the hardware can do" LOLOLOLOL!!

Megido
Megido
Depuis 2656 Jours

08/07/2009 à 22:04:53

Could do? It's a very high level programming language. Why would an RPG be out of reach? If someone made a action game in the spirit of NG or DMC (ofc not as complex though) or a fighter, now THAT would impress me :P

---
El perro, el perro es mi corazón
El gato, el gato, el gato es no bueno
Cilantro es cantante
Cilantro es muy famoso
Cilantro es el hombre con el queso del diablo!

dcdelgado
dcdelgado
Depuis 3190 Jours

08/07/2009 à 22:07:56 En réponse à Megido (08/07/2009 à 22:04:53)

Well for a entry level point and click app, i did not think it stretched to RPG's, but now i know it does KOTOR3 will be coming soon starring Darth DCdelgado!! :)

---
** Yes We CAN!! **

Kaz Hirai - Sony

"We don't provide the 'easy to program for' console that [developers] want, because 'easy to program for' means that anybody will be able to take advantage of pretty much what the hardware can do" LOLOLOLOL!!

Megido
Megido
Depuis 2656 Jours

08/07/2009 à 22:10:58

Since an RPG is mainly numbers being thrown back and forth i think that should not be so hard to accomplish...it'll probably take a lot of time though. As long as you can define variables and do little "if" questions i don't see why an RPG should be impossible. Though loads more work will have to be done compared to making some little twin stick shooter :P

---
El perro, el perro es mi corazón
El gato, el gato, el gato es no bueno
Cilantro es cantante
Cilantro es muy famoso
Cilantro es el hombre con el queso del diablo!

dcdelgado
dcdelgado
Depuis 3190 Jours

08/07/2009 à 22:26:58 En réponse à Megido (08/07/2009 à 22:10:58)

Then i fear kotor3 will be in dev for some time!

---
** Yes We CAN!! **

Kaz Hirai - Sony

"We don't provide the 'easy to program for' console that [developers] want, because 'easy to program for' means that anybody will be able to take advantage of pretty much what the hardware can do" LOLOLOLOL!!

Megido
Megido
Depuis 2656 Jours

31/07/2009 à 23:51:02

Okay, so i tried Kodu out just now and well...maybe i'm just too stupid to figure it out or something, but i think it feels insanely limited. Even for what it is. Like why do they have to give every object a predefined way to act? Just let me pick an object and then tell it how to act, if i want a tree to run across the freaking level while shooting apples then let me. Also no variables, no if statements no nothing...how do they expect you to be able to create anything cool with this? 400 MSP wasted.

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LEBATO
IS WRONG LEBATO - IS WRONG
Depuis 3452 Jours

01/08/2009 à 05:48:49 En réponse à Megido (31/07/2009 à 23:51:02)

Posté par Megido
Okay, so i tried Kodu out just now and well...maybe i'm just too stupid to figure it out or something, but i think it feels insanely limited. Even for what it is. Like why do they have to give every object a predefined way to act? Just let me pick an object and then tell it how to act, if i want a tree to run across the freaking level while shooting apples then let me. Also no variables, no if statements no nothing...how do they expect you to be able to create anything cool with this? 400 MSP wasted.
Damn!

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Acert93
Mr. Bad Cop Acert93 - Mr. Bad Cop
Depuis 3301 Jours

01/08/2009 à 06:20:26 En réponse à Megido (31/07/2009 à 23:51:02)

Posté par Megido
Okay, so i tried Kodu out just now and well...maybe i'm just too stupid to figure it out or something, but i think it feels insanely limited. Even for what it is. Like why do they have to give every object a predefined way to act? Just let me pick an object and then tell it how to act, if i want a tree to run across the freaking level while shooting apples then let me. Also no variables, no if statements no nothing...how do they expect you to be able to create anything cool with this? 400 MSP wasted.
You need to try it again because you missed that "when" is essentially "if". With paging you get branching as well and as others have shown you can do all sorts of conditions (when x, then a,b,c cascades and such) as well as set various scoring colors as triggers for events.

As for specific objects having classes of options the point of the game is to program and they give you a variety of objects for each class. There is a dozen objects that can accomplish the design goals you mention.

Sure, it would be nice to have more options, clearer syntax, more objects, etc. e.g. the FPS camera is wonky, not having an object that is more affected by friction and gravity (like a ball a player can control), etc does pose some problems but some of the stuff people are doing is very cool. Like any language you have to think it through and have a creative idea.

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Megido
Megido
Depuis 2656 Jours

01/08/2009 à 11:15:52

I just don't see the point. It seems to be more complicated than just coding it.

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Acert93
Mr. Bad Cop Acert93 - Mr. Bad Cop
Depuis 3301 Jours

01/08/2009 à 19:45:16 En réponse à Megido (01/08/2009 à 11:15:52)

Posté par Megido
I just don't see the point. It seems to be more complicated than just coding it.
What do you think the purpose of Kodu is?

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Pwn'd by Phaethon360.

Megido
Megido
Depuis 2656 Jours

01/08/2009 à 19:51:03

After trying it it feels like over complicating otherwise fairly simple tasks :P

The goal of Kodu should, and probably is, to make game creation easy as pie and fun. I just feel a lack of some basic things If, then and else branches that could easily ahve been implemented and made a lot of stuff easier.

Oh and i you ahve a lot of experience with it, how do you spawn in enemies? I want to spawn enemies at a certain point and have them behave in a certain way straight off the bat, how do i do stuff like that?

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SimonM7
The other mod's bitch SimonM7 - The other mod's bitch
Depuis 3353 Jours

01/08/2009 à 23:56:13

Actually this is exactly where I think LBP has gone down a better route. I've no intention of sparking some vs thing here, so don't start, but I think that ultimately if you really want to create your own game, anything like this will at some point inevitably feel like you're struggling to get past a big fat dude in a doorway. You can see the doorway, you know you wanna go through it, but this fat dude has kinda guided you through the hallway and shown you the door and now he won't get the fuck out of your way.

I feel that way with Blogger at this point. A brilliantly, awesomely accessible thing but ultimately when your vision is grander than the scope of the tools it just becomes a nuisance.. and what's worse? You've learnt absolutely nothing!

I do feel that starting from scratch is an endeavour I'd never embark on with regards to game development, but there are far better "engines" around for PC if you really want proper creative freedom and learn something in the process.

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http://modeseven.blogspot.com | Dominic and Simon - dyanamic games blog duo!

Acert93
Mr. Bad Cop Acert93 - Mr. Bad Cop
Depuis 3301 Jours

02/08/2009 à 02:18:26 En réponse à Megido (01/08/2009 à 19:51:03)

Posté par Megido
After trying it it feels like over complicating otherwise fairly simple tasks :P

The goal of Kodu should, and probably is, to make game creation easy as pie and fun. I just feel a lack of some basic things If, then and else branches that could easily ahve been implemented and made a lot of stuff easier.
To be blunt: You don't even understand what Kodu is. It fails to meet your expectations because you want it to be something it is not: essentially a game you mod.

Kodu is, from their own mouths, first and foremost a programming tool aimed to teaching children the concepts of programming as well as game design. It is immediately accessible through a intuitive programming language where basic tasks can be assigned quickly. But it is a design and programming framework--you don't only control the game, you are responsible for programming it as well.

They may have been able to appeal to people with your taste better with having a slew of complex pre-fabbed games and toolsets so you could "mod" what you want, but that isn't the point: it is a creative pallet where you the user define and design the world (within the limits of the framework of course).
Oh and i you ahve a lot of experience with it, how do you spawn in enemies? I want to spawn enemies at a certain point and have them behave in a certain way straight off the bat, how do i do stuff like that?
A number of the tutorials cover various ways to "spawn" enemies. There is a basic "create" command. Take a look at the sample code as well as the koduplayground website.

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Acert93
Mr. Bad Cop Acert93 - Mr. Bad Cop
Depuis 3301 Jours

02/08/2009 à 02:29:15 En réponse à SimonM7 (01/08/2009 à 23:56:13)

Posté par SimonM7
Actually this is exactly where I think LBP has gone down a better route. I've no intention of sparking some vs thing here, so don't start, but I think that ultimately if you really want to create your own game, anything like this will at some point inevitably feel like you're struggling to get past a big fat dude in a doorway. You can see the doorway, you know you wanna go through it, but this fat dude has kinda guided you through the hallway and shown you the door and now he won't get the fuck out of your way.
This is exactly why LBP is worse. I won't argue with you as you have no desire for such, but what LBP is is a preconfined game where you essentially mod. What you will never do with LBP is make an FPS, 3D racing game, etc.

Kodu is exactly the opposite. Where Kodu fails is that it is a $5 game made by 6 people and it is ment to (a) excell at being a visual programming framework aimed at all levels of users and (b) jack of all trades, ammendable to all sorts of basic genres. Kodu, within the limitations of the framework (basic graphics, rudimentary code limited to 6 pages per object, limited assets, limited controls over control inputs, no linking together of levels, and so forth) you DON'T have that fat man in the way. You can do whatever you want immediately: SP, 1v1, coop, 2v2, 3v1, 4 player free for all in all sorts of game styles and concepts.

What Kodu requiers, though, is creativity and problem solving. Something "mods" pretty much don't require because the designers already figured those issues out.
I feel that way with Blogger at this point. A brilliantly, awesomely accessible thing but ultimately when your vision is grander than the scope of the tools it just becomes a nuisance.. and what's worse? You've learnt absolutely nothing!
That is why anyone who is serious uses Drupal (PHP), Joomla! (PHP), or Django (Python). Blogger is your prefabbed "do it our way" tool that is easy, accessible, and fast. But once you try to do something different (like make an FPS in LBP!) utter FAIL! The other frameworks are accessible but take more effort to get going Day1, but have much more top end. True, you canreally screw up... and true, it will NEVER be like hard coding it all in C++ but it is a compromise. Kodu is much more like these than Blogger--and LBP is Blogger thruogh and through.
I do feel that starting from scratch is an endeavour I'd never embark on with regards to game development, but there are far better "engines" around for PC if you really want proper creative freedom and learn something in the process.
I haven't found many with the immediacy of the visual programming model or for the price. There may be stuff like it, but it doesn't mean Kodu (that is 360 and PC) with a large userbase and exchange network is horrible. It has a LOT of short comings--really rough in many ways and lacks quality tutorials--but I cannot think of much better app for youngsters or those who are creative but have never touched any code.

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SimonM7
The other mod's bitch SimonM7 - The other mod's bitch
Depuis 3353 Jours

02/08/2009 à 03:03:09

But that's my point! LPB doesn't even pretend that you're making YOUR OWN GAME, it presents a rule set and wraps it in a loveable presentation where achieving your goals is just as much about charming problem solving (solutions often proving visually obvious for someone who plays it, enabling a sense of WOAH that's so clever!). Nobody goes into LPB and leaves frustrated because they can't make that perfect game they wanna make, that was never the hook of it in the first place.

I think Kodu is fundamentally flawed and downright deceptive in a way. It's like learning how a computer works by trying to figure stuff out from Windows' interface.

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http://modeseven.blogspot.com | Dominic and Simon - dyanamic games blog duo!

LEBATO
IS WRONG LEBATO - IS WRONG
Depuis 3452 Jours

02/08/2009 à 07:52:49

Well for what it's worth, from what I played of LBP, it sucks ass. I don't see what's so great about it. Well, "sucks ass" might be too harsh, but it's so average in my opinion. But you know it's me, I'm not easily impressed by these "innovative" games. (*thinks of the overrated Braid*)......

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Megido
Megido
Depuis 2656 Jours

02/08/2009 à 08:54:48

Acert: no i do realize that Kodu is a very high level programming language, but that's just it...it might be a bit too high level to suite me. Where did you get the mod impression by the way? I whine about feeling a lack of freedom, not that Kodu hasn't done everything for me.

Lebato: wow, someone else that actually thinks braid is overrated. Hallelujah.

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LEBATO
IS WRONG LEBATO - IS WRONG
Depuis 3452 Jours

02/08/2009 à 09:11:57 En réponse à Megido (02/08/2009 à 08:54:48)

Posté par Megido
Lebato: wow, someone else that actually thinks braid is overrated. Hallelujah.

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Forums-> Main forum-> Kodu: Make Your Own Games on XBLA (Boku): << 1 2 3 4 >>

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