GrimThorne
GrimThorne
Since 5193 Days
I've always felt that if providing DLC so soon after a game's release is going to be the norm, why not drop the initial price of games to reflect the eventual costs to gamers that arriving DLC will bring?

And I've always felt cheated when purchasing maps for any shooter, Bungie is no fuckin different from the rest. FPS DLC always seems less valuable to me in the long run because it's just maps and nothing more. However DLC for RPGs or Action-Adventures usually involve an expanded story, new weapons, new locations, new vehicles, new characters etc. You really feel like you're getting your money's worth even if it only means a few extra hours of game time. Wouldn't it be cool if Bungie came out with some dlc that followed Jun and Dr. Halsey escaping Reach? No.........I'm going to hold my breath for that either, but it just adds to my point that shooter DLC is usually just maps.

Of course the drawbacks to purchasing ANY content is the GOTY editions that include everything that you purchased at a significantly reduced price.
In reply to
Phaethon360 - Mr Pant<s>s</s>ies
Phaethon360
Since 5167 Days
If anything I would argue that Bungie's level making has gone downhill this generation. Each release has had a sparse list of A+ quality level design. Whereas Epic Games has over 20+ maps each game, often remaking or offering the older maps that were fan favorites. Bungie has a huge storage locker full of good maps, but rather than port and sell them they just let them collect digital dust while they let their interns Forge World away. Every time I've quit Halo it's always because I'm sick of the maps. Boneyard, Spire, Pinnacle (dammit Jetpacks), Paradiso, The Cage (HOLY SHIT SPAWNS), Hemorrhage (spiral spawn deathtrap anyone?), that leaves me with 7 maps that I can stand to play, which results in 3 that I actually get to play at any given time in any playlist I'm in. Sparse. I'd pay $10 for good maps. I'd pay even more for maps I already know are good. This is why I'm glad Bungie is leaving Halo. Maybe MS can outsource level design to Epic Games. Hell, Treyarch even, have a heart Kotick!
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Don't you know who I am? I'm the goddamned Banman.

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Inflatable
Inflatable
Since 5959 Days
Posted by Frozpot
Sigh, this again. So it's greedy to want to get paid for work they did outside the main product, but it's not greedy for you to expect it for free ?. Sure, they made a lot of money because they made a product people want. They could just stop making extra maps and be done with it. You act like they are arbitrarily bestowed their success by the masses, not that the company exchanged a quality product people wanted and thus reaped the reward. Anything outside of the original content(unless specified in some kind of agreement)you get for free is just a dev being cool, not something you earned for being a fan. It seems you are the one on shakey moral ground. Yawn...
People like you just don't get it (you most likely never played games on PC for the last 15+ years like me).. It's not them wanting to get paid for the socalled extra work (hardly any extra work for them anyway), it's companies like MS taking away free online and free content so they can charge for it now.. Don't you see games getting less & less content these days (SP campaigns getting shorter, and MP getting less & less maps at release), because they want to charge later for socalled extra content thru premium DLC (content that should have been in the game from the start).. You also say they could stop releasing extra content and be done with it.. Well, I'd wish they'd do that, and just give us the mapediting (and mod-) tools again so the community can make it's own maps and spread them for free.. But no, offcourse they won't do that, because it's companies like MS that want to have a monopoly on anything including making and offering content, so they can charge you extra for it..

Again, Valve shows it can still be done.. But unfortunatly they are one of the very few left.. The consolemonopolists are killing it all..


/goes back to playing Company of Heroes on PC, Blitzkrieg mod full of custom maps, all made for free by the community itself..
In reply to
Phaethon360 - Mr Pant<s>s</s>ies
Phaethon360
Since 5167 Days
I agree that console gaming has McDonaldsified the gaming landscape.

I agree that the Valve business model is brilliant. If it's going on my PC, I'm buying it through Steam plain and simple. If Gabe Newell said "OMG, our service is going to stop forever unless you spend $100 on stuff on our store :( plz!" I would do it. Why? Because They've built up loyalty and trust over the past few years that has been attached to quality. (Plus $100 on Steam buys you like $10,000 worth of backlog games from 2000-2008)

I'm not asking Bungie/MS to start trying. I'm just asking them to press the button that says "Convert .halo1/2/3 to .haloreach" in their Map Editor. I've even got the MS space bux out in hand, and they don't want it! I don't know what business model that follows. Is it a licensing issue maybe? Since the maps are officially MS content tied to previous games maybe they can't? Who needs to be fired so that I can enjoy my gamez plz?
In reply to

Don't you know who I am? I'm the goddamned Banman.

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Frozpot
Frozpot
Since 5080 Days
I'm not sure where all the "old games had more content" fits at all. Maybe because of online communities with dev tools, but that's a totally different thing( i.e. people with other jobs that create things in their spare time for a hobby)- Although Reach DOES have Forge. To say that it takes almost no effort is bollox ( he,he, I always wanted to use that word) as well. Tremendous amounts of work go into testing and balancing quality maps. Not to mention teams of artists that must be paid. Distributing and implementing takes resources as well. Resources that could be allocated elsewhere.

Reach is massively feature-rich anyway, and to say that the old norm for games was that they were longer and more feature-rich is insane. I think there is a rose-colored nostalgia filter going on here. Unless you are talking RPGs I can't think of any games being substantially longer. Games are also MUCH more expensive to make now while keeping the end price the same for the consumer. If anything, I feel that I play the games I own MORE because of DLC. Bungie also updates the game constantly with challenges every day no less( those have to be coded by someone).

@Phaethon360- I certainly could love to see all of the old maps brought into Reach, although I doubt it's as simple as just importing geometry( the new gameplay changes would require changes to make them work in any meaningful way). As for Valve, I think their model works because, one, they do more than make games so they can deflect costs( not everyone can do that), and two they don't seem interested in expansion. They don't put games out often( Halflife ep 3 anyone), and what they HAVE put out recently was what L4D1 and 2. Not long or very different games. Perhaps with more income they could put more energy into their GAMES. You can't really count Portal because it was made by some students at DigiPen. Portal 2 on the other hand *rolls eyes back in ecstasy*...
In reply to

Oooh, Profound, isn't it?

Phaethon360 - Mr Pant<s>s</s>ies
Phaethon360
Since 5167 Days
To say that Bungie doesn't have enough income would be grave misstep in judgment. If they don't have income, who does? When they left MS, they negotiated for every map pack release to give them money. $10x50% of the Halo-base is $$$ no matter how you look at it. Not to mention getting paid for creating the darn things. I mean, ODST wasn't really even anything that even warranted a purchase, yet that sold like crazy. L4D2 was more necessary than ODST. But I will agree that Valve has a much superior infrastructure to creating content than Bungie does, and that's true for every other developer out there. I think having their own proprietary engines has helped both Valve and Epic maintain post-release content. Bungie seems a bit more opportunist than invested.
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Don't you know who I am? I'm the goddamned Banman.

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Tinks
Tinks
Since 5251 Days
No one thinks the way Bungie maintains their online system with constant tweaking and updating is worth paying for some map packs? Not to mention the way they handle the online community and their opinions/outcries. I guess if you come from the PC perspective it does seem wrong, but if you look at this as someone who mainly plays console it seems understandable.
I'd say just about no one supports their games after release on console to the level Bungie does. It's always on to the next game/sequel. Am I wrong? Epic has basically abandoned Gears in each release and Valve does the same thing generally but has the benefit of it being on PC first so there are little to no problems once it reaches console. Then there's DICE and the BF franchise who are getting pushed to do sequels rather than care for their games.

I don't know. To me a company taking the time to care for their game after release instead of going after another big title is admirable. Whether the content is already on the disc is another matter though.
In reply to
Frozpot
Frozpot
Since 5080 Days
Posted by Phaethon360
To say that Bungie doesn't have enough income would be grave misstep in judgment. If they don't have income, who does? When they left MS, they negotiated for every map pack release to give them money. $10x50% of the Halo-base is $$$ no matter how you look at it. Not to mention getting paid for creating the darn things. I mean, ODST wasn't really even anything that even warranted a purchase, yet that sold like crazy. L4D2 was more necessary than ODST. But I will agree that Valve has a much superior infrastructure to creating content than Bungie does, and that's true for every other developer out there. I think having their own proprietary engines has helped both Valve and Epic maintain post-release content. Bungie seems a bit more opportunist than invested.
Hmm, never said Bungie doesn't have enough income :P. Just because someone has money doesn't give people the right to demand something that is in their power to provide free of charge. Whether you think it's douchey or not, my point is Morality has no relevance here...
In reply to

Oooh, Profound, isn't it?

Phaethon360 - Mr Pant<s>s</s>ies
Phaethon360
Since 5167 Days
All I want are the maps. The maps that so far aren't even available for purchase. Whether they're free or not is irrelevant to me. This recent playlist update just heralded the coming end of my Halo Reach addiction. You end up bouncing around Countdown and Sword Base for eternity. And then there's the "new" maps. Atom really is abysmal. It's just TOO FUCKING BIG for 4vs4 slayer. Multi-team and Big Team might work, but the thing is clumsy. Cliffhanger -- well, I can't quite tell it a part from Atom well enough to weigh in. It really seems like a half a bastardized version of Atom. I don't hate it as much for 4vs4, but Asylum is the best (and only good) Forge World map in the entire game. This game would be so much better if you got a chance to choose the maps/modes you wanted to play. If they're not willing/capable of creating that infrastructure they should at least meet me half way with a decent map pack.

But screw this. I'm going to create my own Forge World map pack. With black jack. And hookers. In fact, just forget the Forge World and the blackjack.
In reply to

Don't you know who I am? I'm the goddamned Banman.

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Ronsauce
Ronsauce
Since 5306 Days
I find Atom a decent size for Team Slayer, but it's a shitty map for Slayer DMRs. To be honest, I'm not a fan of any of the Forge World Team Slayer maps though, Asylum included. I just can't get into any open map that allows me to get shot from any direction the moment I start to move. Consequently, I really like Sword Base and Countdown, and I wish there were more similar maps.

Futurama reference FTW
In reply to

Zapp Brannigan: If we can hit that bull's eye, the rest of the dominoes will fall like a house of cards...Checkmate.

Acert93 - Mr. Bad Cop
Acert93
Since 5292 Days
imo most Reach maps suck. Very, very dissappointed. Love the AAs but the game maps are meh which accents the lack of good team modes and elements. The wussified aspects (AR, DMR, nades) make pubbing horrible. After I move I will beg Pants to play with me again and stick to better players, but the maps are a chore most of the time. And Invasion is the poster child for a good idea poorly executed.
In reply to

Pwn'd by Phaethon360.

Phaethon360 - Mr Pant<s>s</s>ies
Phaethon360
Since 5167 Days
Where/when are you moving? And did you work anymore on your Rally map? That was some serious fun.
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Don't you know who I am? I'm the goddamned Banman.

http://www.couchcampus.com

deftangel - Hot stuff!
deftangel
Since 5189 Days
I was a bit dis-satisfied with the maps pre-release but my view softened slightly when I got it. Paradiso on Forge World would normally be a map in it's own right. I still think shipping Invasion with only 2 maps designed for it was a bad idea. Like Acert said, good idea which is poorly executed. Even then, I still enjoy playing it but it should really be 8 players aside with more coherent objectives for each phase.

I've not come across the forge world variants yet. Are they only in 4v4?
In reply to

http://twitter.com/deftangel

Viginti_Tres
Viginti_Tres
Since 4823 Days
I don't like most of the maps either. Countdown and Sword Base are the biggest offenders. Zealot, while a completely different layout, isn't good either. I'll probably buy the mappack, but I fear it'll be just like Halo 3, worse than the original maps.

Still waiting for some good community content. I like the Halo 2 remakes, but I'd like to play more fresh arena style maps. Preferably in its own playlist!
In reply to
Ronsauce
Ronsauce
Since 5306 Days
What don't you like about Countdown and Sword Base? I enjoy maps that aren't spawn-into-battle clusterfucks, so that's why I enjoy both of them.
In reply to

Zapp Brannigan: If we can hit that bull's eye, the rest of the dominoes will fall like a house of cards...Checkmate.

Viginti_Tres
Viginti_Tres
Since 4823 Days
Well for one they don't have snipers. I love just fooling around on Asylum FFA and trying to get as many no scopes as possible, when I'm on my own making spectacular kills satisfies me more than winning the game. I also love being able to kill anyone across the map. Having corridors everywhere makes it a completely different game: You don't have to know the map very well and you don't need good peripheral vision to do well.

I haven't played much team slayer I must say, I don't have a team I can play with regularly. From experience open arenas are good for team shooting, something Halo has always emphasised and I loved. Spawning is a big problem, though. For Reach the maps need to be a bit larger since we have sprint and very precise starting weapons. That's why I still have high hopes the community can come up with some great new maps.
In reply to
Ronsauce
Ronsauce
Since 5306 Days
Ahh, see, no snipers is another reason I like those maps...and is a reason I like playing Elite Slayer over regular Slayer on maps that have sniper rifles.
In reply to

Zapp Brannigan: If we can hit that bull's eye, the rest of the dominoes will fall like a house of cards...Checkmate.

Inflatable
Inflatable
Since 5959 Days
Posted by Tinks
I guess if you come from the PC perspective it does seem wrong, but if you look at this as someone who mainly plays console it seems understandable.
That's what I said.. Most gamers today are console-only gamers, never played anything else.. They are happy to get to play online and get extra content, because that was never on consoles before, so they don't really mind paying for it.. But if you're a oldskool PC gamer like me you only see things going from great to bad to worse.. I'm really losing my hope for true fun times in online gaming in the future for myself.. I'm used to playing FPS games with great online communities that get regular updates via patches and extra content, modtools available and mapeditors which talents in the community itself used to make great custom maps, and where everybody could host their own dedicated servers with all the settings and maps they liked.. All that added to the fun, and nobody got left behind because it was all free and available for everybody, only thing you paid for was the game itself.. Nowadays everything is different.. Gone are the modtools and mapeditors, gone are the open and free dedicted servers (you can only rent some), gone is the content.. SP campaign that last 4-5 hours and online MP that only comes with 4 maps for each gamemode (MoH).. Want extra content? They started charging for extra maps on PC now aswell, see MW2.. What's next? Games coming with no MP maps at all, except for extra charge?

The growing greed of a industry that got bigger and bigger took away a lot of the fun for me and plenty of others I know.. But we are a minority, so hardly anybody really cares, and we'll keep buying aswell like everybody else (no choice really, other then to quit playing new games)..
In reply to
Acert93 - Mr. Bad Cop
Acert93
Since 5292 Days
Posted by Phaethon360
Where/when are you moving? And did you work anymore on your Rally map? That was some serious fun.
We are moving a couple blocks down the road on Sunday. Have spent the last 2 weeks looking for a place and packing and the last week cleaning the new place (ick). The good of this is I have been tired with Comcast's poor service (24Mb down, 6Mb up, but most of the time service is FAR below that where even Netflix gets 1 bar... grrr!) so for the same price I can get FiOS 25Mb/25Mb up/down with no throttling or caps. But that also means 3 weeks of no Halo Reach before everything is squared away.

The Rally map needs some more work ... I am trying to figure out health so I can have vehicles take 3-5 shots before exploding, ala a rally kart game.
In reply to

Pwn'd by Phaethon360.

Inflatable
Inflatable
Since 5959 Days
They are making rally maps for Halo:Reach MP? That sounds fun, I might try it out sometimes..

I have to say, for a consolegame, Reach offers good value for money in term of content ith the Forge tools etc.. To bad they charge for the official mappacks though..
In reply to
Acert93 - Mr. Bad Cop
Acert93
Since 5292 Days
I am making a rally map. And to be quite honest, while it has a lot of options it is missing the important ones.
In reply to

Pwn'd by Phaethon360.

sanex
Since 3509 Days
LOVING FIREFIGHT!!!!!!!!!
In reply to
RC_Master
RC_Master
Since 5223 Days
FYI, the Noble Map pack is being released at exactly the same time after release (77 days) as the Heroic map pack was for Halo 3. These maps weren't finished by the time the game went content complete (back in july or something) and in fact were only finished a few weeks ago. They're still the same price as the Halo 3 map packs too. Did you bitch like this about the Halo 3 content?
Posted by Inflatable
I don't care if the segregation has a dramatic effect or not, segregation shouldn't happen at all, periode.
Segregation already happens on what gametype you want to play and how good you are. *GASP*
Posted by Inflatable
/goes back to playing Company of Heroes on PC, Blitzkrieg mod full of custom maps, all made for free by the community itself..
Did you not hear of the Forgetacular competition? Bungie ARE going to be vetting and releasing community made maps into the playlists FOR FREE very soon. best of all, since the base map (Forge World) is on everyone's copy, you don't have to download anything to get the new content.

FYI, Pinnacle was a Halo 2 map.
Posted by Phaethon360
Atom really is abysmal. It's just TOO FUCKING BIG for 4vs4 slayer. Multi-team and Big Team might work, but the thing is clumsy.
Thats a community created map. Yes, it is actually meant for BTB. (and is in fact in the BTB playlist)
Asylum is the best (and only good) Forge World map in the entire game.
Thats a port of a Halo 2 map. Just saying.
Posted by GrimThorne
I've always felt that if providing DLC so soon after a game's release is going to be the norm, why not drop the initial price of games to reflect the eventual costs to gamers that arriving DLC will bring?
Or, if you don't feel the content of the game justifies the initial buy-in price, why don't you wait a while for that to drop? Nevermind arguments that, in real terms, game prices have actually been dropping over the years.

Reach is £37 brand new at Amazon atm. Or £28 if you get a second hand copy. If you feel your experience with Halo Reach over the last 2 months hasn't been worth that £12 extra, then why are you buying on the release day? Its not like they're gonna run out of copies...
Of course the drawbacks to purchasing ANY content is the GOTY editions that include everything that you purchased at a significantly reduced price.
And... thats the price of getting the content early. C'mon. What the fuck do you want?

Want to see a movie first? You're gonna have to buy a cinema ticket. Want to get a book as soon as possible? You're gonna have to get the more expensive hardback. What a new console first? A new TV first? You're gonna have to pay extra for it.


Do I think Reach is perfect? no. Are there issues with it I want fixed? yes. Is it still fun? Yes. Do I want more maps to play on in MM? Yes. Are Bungie putting more maps in there? Yes, both for free and paid. Are they more evil than they were 3 years ago when they released a map pack for Halo 3 that contained the same number of maps for the same price? no. In fact, they're probably less so. As while the Heroic Map Pack for Halo 3 included Foundry which opened up a lot of Forging possibilites, Forge World is bigger, is better, and is already on your disc. You don't have to pay anything extra, and you don't have to download a several hundred mega-byte map pack to enjoy the FREE community content that it enables.

If you don't agree with the price/motivation behind the DLC then simply don't fucking buy it. That sends a stronger message than simply bitching about it on forums. You don't get any LESS game than you already did. You just miss out on the oppurtunity for MORE game.


Oh and GrimThone, ODST started as Halo 3 DLC, theres no reason Bungie can't do something similar with Halo Reach. Whether they will or not is a different matter.
--

Just as an aside: Bungie simply DON'T do the 'copy paste' from old maps to new game. At the very least they give it a graphical overhaul (e.g. Reflection(reach) or Heretic(h3)) and other times they reconfigure it (hemmorhage, or Blackout). That has mixed results and reactions, sure, but you can't accuse them of simply skimping. Many of the smaller maps from Halo's past can be rebuilt in Forge World. I for one would rather they spent their time either on the remakes that really can't be done in Forgeworld (avalanche?) or on entirely new stuff. There are already quite a number of pretty faithful recreations of old maps in FW, by the community.
In reply to

Ignorance is the true enemy of all things.

Suhweet!

GrimThorne
GrimThorne
Since 5193 Days
I don't know why anytime someone levels any valid criticism at them it's considering bitching and whining. And as I've said around here before, forums are all we have. If you know of another way or place to air your grievances about a particular game, then please let us know. Until then...........forums will have to suffice.

And THIS is not what Bungie needs btw, more people giving them credit for doing the same shit game after game. I suspect that if I don't buy the dlc to make this powerful statement (all by myself), I'll eventually be locked out the experience just as was done with Halo 3 before I eventually got those maps. Eventually the community will move from the older maps, there's already evidence of that going on right now. In BTB the primary maps that are voted on are Hemorrhage, Spire and Paradiso. After that whole crops of players usually quit if anything else comes up in voting. Bungie should have a system that selects the next highest voted map in the following match, more players would stick around even if they were forced to play a map they didn't like first. After those two matches are played players start another fresh round of voting, it would cut down on the quitting and even grant some players the opportunity to get some payback or get their butts handed to them again in the next match.

I'm still having fun with Bungie's lastest retread, but don't try to sell us on it being something so different from their last efforts. They've made some improvements but they really haven't taken any risks with this franchise or the multiplayer. And I'll say it again, shooter DLC is maps, nothing more. So the point about ODST is irrelevant and not worth anyone holding their breath for. Bungie is done with this franchise after Reach and many of us believe that probably is a good thing.
In reply to
RC_Master
RC_Master
Since 5223 Days
Posted by GrimThorne
I don't know why anytime someone levels any valid criticism at them it's considering bitching and whining.
I didn't use the word whining. And I didn't think the criticism I responded to was valid.
And as I've said around here before, forums are all we have. If you know of another way or place to air your grievances about a particular game, then please let us know. Until then...........forums will have to suffice.
Well, Optimatch on B.net is a good place to start on forum based feedback. there are both map and playlist specific feedback threads (check the pinned threads).
And THIS is not what Bungie needs btw, more people giving them credit for doing the same shit game after game.
A: its the same franchise, B: locked in by a publishing/ownership deal. C: I actually think the step from H3 to Reach was much greater than H2 to H3, so I'm allowed to give them credit for trying to move it forward there.

D: I've complained about many aspects of this game.
I suspect that if I don't buy the dlc to make this powerful statement (all by myself), I'll eventually be locked out the experience just as was done with Halo 3 before I eventually got those maps.
Are you UK or US? Reward.xbox.com
Eventually the community will move from the older maps, there's already evidence of that going on right now. In BTB the primary maps that are voted on are Hemorrhage, Spire and Paradiso. After that whole crops of players usually quit if anything else comes up in voting. Bungie should have a system that selects the next highest voted map in the following match, more players would stick around even if they were forced to play a map they didn't like first. After those two matches are played players start another fresh round of voting, it would cut down on the quitting and even grant some players the opportunity to get some payback or get their butts handed to them again in the next match.
This took me a while to understand 0.o

Yeah I do think that the recent maps played of players in the game should count towards what maps are up for voting. But I don't see how locking players into cycles of two games in between voting will help. Especially when the teams could potentially be mis-matched, and if they are, people will quit, and then it'll have to search for new players and it wouldn't be fair to start the game without giving them a chance to vote on what they want to play.
I'm still having fun with Bungie's lastest retread, but don't try to sell us on it being something so different from their last efforts. They've made some improvements but they really haven't taken any risks with this franchise or the multiplayer.
I'm not trying to say its so different. In fact for much of my post I was drawing parallels. I'm confused...

Why does a company need to take risks to make a good game though? By definition if a game is risky you're not sure whether its going to turn out any good, right? A lot of games are still missing loads and loads of features that are almost guaranteed to make the game more fun or have more replay value without having to decide: "hmm, ok, Halo... we're gonna make the game about a space Jackal pirate caught in the middle of the Human/covenant war, playing both sides with offers to attack the other and it'll be 3rd person with an advanced hand to hand combat mechanic"
Bungie is done with this franchise after Reach and many of us believe that probably is a good thing.
Um. So do I. A post-halo bungie game will be interesting to see.
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Ignorance is the true enemy of all things.

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