NBA 2K7 PS3 more advanced than 360 version

hasanahmad
hasanahmad
Since 5670 Days
http://ps3.ign.com/articles/737/737118p1.html?RSSw...

Motion Controller Free Throws
Better Framerate
1080p
Better Pixel Shading


But 360 fans shouldnt be mad as Visual Concept says the PS3 version has been in development for over a year and both 360 and PS3 versions will go through different development cycles, with the next 360 version more advanced than PS3 version and the next PS3 version more advanced than 360 version and so on
In reply to

Burn em' at the stake!!!

Slabs
Slabs
Since 5684 Days
It isn't 1080p, you're thinking of the quite ugly Sony developed NBA 07 game.

We'll see how "tangible" the difference is when the game is released.
In reply to
Optimusv2
Optimusv2
Since 5546 Days
I'm not surprised they've probably been working on the ps3 version of this game since 2k6 on the 360.
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Jollipop
Jollipop
Since 5537 Days
Interesting ...
In reply to

I want Blue Dragon more than Optimus .... mwah ha ha ha ha ha..

Marumaro for the WIN !!

Optimusv2
Optimusv2
Since 5546 Days
The spes being individual and not taking processing power away from the rest of the game is definitely a ps3 advantage. It will in the long run be a bigger ps3 advantage I think.. I guess one has to wonder just how much can be achieved on the 360's 6 threads and how much can a single spu do?

I imagine it can do a lot if it a single spe handles the entire operating system for the console.

The part about the pixels I take that to mean the cell is doing a good job of helping out with the graphics or the rsx's dedicated pixel and vertex shader setup is more familiar to them, but at the same time they likely aren't using xenos as ati would like them to just yet.

Mr. Huddy said that Xbox 360 game console, which sports developed by ATI Xenos graphics core with unified shader architecture and 48 shader processors, loses 20% to 25% performance in pixel-shader limited games, when its graphics chip is configured as non-unified, e.g.,16 processors work strictly on vertex shaders, whereas 32 are assigned for pixel shaders



NBA 2K8 for both consoles is going to be interesting to say the least :D
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hasanahmad
hasanahmad
Since 5670 Days
Posted by Optimusv2
The spes being individual and not taking processing power away from the rest of the game is definitely a ps3 advantage. It will in the long run be a bigger ps3 advantage I think.. I guess one has to wonder just how much can be achieved on the 360's 6 threads and how much can a single spu do?

I imagine it can do a lot if it a single spe handles the entire operating system for the console.
if they do 1 SPE only for clothes that leaves 4 for the rest of the game

its all about optimization over a year and half of development (E3 2005 to november)
In reply to

Burn em' at the stake!!!

Optimusv2
Optimusv2
Since 5546 Days
Doesn't that leave 5 for the rest of the game? Since there are 6 for available or is another one taken for something?
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hasanahmad
hasanahmad
Since 5670 Days
Posted by Optimusv2
Doesn't that leave 5 for the rest of the game? Since there are 6 for available or is another one taken for something?
tsk tsk

1.5 is for the OS
.5 is for sound

5 left for AI, Shaders, Textures and Physics
In reply to

Burn em' at the stake!!!

Heretic
Heretic
Since 5627 Days
Posted by hasanahmad
tsk tsk

1.5 is for the OS
.5 is for sound

5 left for AI, Shaders, Textures and Physics
FTW?
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Tronzilla
Tronzilla
Since 5624 Days
Better frame rate sounds good I was playing 2k7 at circuit city and everytime i would start to run up the floor the frame rate would drop for a second every single time.
In reply to
lukasblue
lukasblue
Since 5401 Days
Well, i saw this game off screen and it didnt look better (to me) than 360 version; also players appears to be slightly dumb.
In reply to

hd-dvd games hd-dvd games hd-dvd games

Optimusv2
Optimusv2
Since 5546 Days
Isn't ai on the cell handled by the ppe? I was under the impression that the spe had trouble with ai currently or ai just wasn't a good fit for the spe.

That's weird I've never noticed any frame drops in 2k7 videos I've seen then again I don't own the game, but I will.
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LEBATO - IS WRONG
LEBATO
Since 5776 Days
Posted by Optimusv2
Isn't ai on the cell handled by the ppe? I was under the impression that the spe had trouble with ai currently or ai just wasn't a good fit for the spe.

That's weird I've never noticed any frame drops in 2k7 videos I've seen then again I don't own the game, but I will.
I have the game and the framerate is VERY solid. Basically 99% of the time everything is fine. I play quarters at 7 minutes, and I notice a framedrop about once per game.

So the game has no problems there at all.
In reply to

http://www.lebato.blogspot.com--UPDATE: Blog Failed.....

RAZurrection
RAZurrection
Since 5527 Days
I didn't realise this was out for 360. When is the PS3 version out?
In reply to
Optimusv2
Optimusv2
Since 5546 Days
Posted by LEBATO
I have the game and the framerate is VERY solid. Basically 99% of the time everything is fine. I play quarters at 7 minutes, and I notice a framedrop about once per game.

So the game has no problems there at all.
Thanks for heads up man now I'm pretty much assured this game is solid in that department because its coming from Lebato and we all know he doesn't hesitate to call a game out :)

I'm a very happy camper!
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lukasblue
lukasblue
Since 5401 Days
Posted by hasanahmad
.5 is for sound
no way !
In reply to

hd-dvd games hd-dvd games hd-dvd games

Jollipop
Jollipop
Since 5537 Days
Posted by hasanahmad
tsk tsk

1.5 is for the OS
.5 is for sound

5 left for AI, Shaders, Textures and Physics
What are you talking about, you spin anything don't you .!!

1 SPE is dedicated to OS, another SPE can be used if needed but generally won't need to be (unless the game is using the eye toy or is reading HD-FMV from the blu-ray)

As for sound it is a process which is part of the game, same as on the 360 which uses one thread to do the sound processing. (SPE's are better suited to sound processing also.)

So as Optimus pointed out the PS3 has 6 full SPE's to play with when processing in game data.
I have the game and the framerate is VERY solid. Basically 99% of the time everything is fine. I play quarters at 7 minutes, and I notice a framedrop about once per game.

So the game has no problems there at all.
It would probably be noticeable in animation, the Cell is better suited to doing animation than the 360 CPU so i would imagine you would get a more fluid animation process (because of the nature of floating point processing) which would probably transfer to better frame rate. << pure speculation
In reply to

I want Blue Dragon more than Optimus .... mwah ha ha ha ha ha..

Marumaro for the WIN !!

hasanahmad
hasanahmad
Since 5670 Days
Posted by Jollipop
What are you talking about, you spin anything don't you .!!

1 SPE is dedicated to OS, another SPE can be used if needed but generally won't need to be (unless the game is using the eye toy or is reading HD-FMV from the blu-ray)

As for sound it is a process which is part of the game engine, same as on the 360 which uses one thread to do the sound processing.

So as Optimus pointed out the PS3 has 6 full SPE's to play with when processing in game.

SPE's are better suited to sound processing also.
1 SPE for OS, 1.5 when processing other OS features like online, atleast 0.5 or 1 SPE for sound as you said (PS3 supports 7.1 surround sound as well as DTS HD and Dolby HD) so for game graphics (which is the topic here) we have 5 SPEs left, SPEs have no branch predictions so A.I on it sucks anyways that leads to even more processing needed for A.I plus the output by RSX to the screen is less than 360 (triangles setup to transformation rate *albiet in time 360 will get better due to efficiency and unified shader usage).

360 version is essentially a port of the Xbox/PS2 version while PS3 is a port of the 360 version. Wait for games which dont have any port assetts whatsoever

namely for PS3: heavenly sword, motorstorm, mgs4, warhawk, resistance

and for 360: dead rising, lost planet, gears of war.

Gears of War is only the 2nd 360 game which has been built from the ground up on the 360 while Resistance is the first, both are releasing a week from each other

tells you something doesnt it
In reply to

Burn em' at the stake!!!

Jollipop
Jollipop
Since 5537 Days
Optimus has already said that the AI will be handled on the PPE.

GoW isn't built from the ground up as it uses UE3 which is a port of a PC gaming engine.

I don't care Hasan, end of the day i plan to have both consoles so don't need to pick sides, but shaving SPE's off here and there is pointless because the difference is going to be small to begin with, and the dev's are saying that the PS3 version will look better so there really is no arguement here.
In reply to

I want Blue Dragon more than Optimus .... mwah ha ha ha ha ha..

Marumaro for the WIN !!

Optimusv2
Optimusv2
Since 5546 Days
In regards to the animation thing jolli I'm not even sure because however good the ps3 cpu may be at animation (the 360 cpu isn't bad at it either)

Also if the cell cpu is better at animation the fact that the 360's gpu can dedicate 48 shader processors to vertex is a big deal as far as animations go too so if the cell cpu beats the 360 cpu at animations (i'm not saying it doesn't its quite possible that it might) The 360's gpu is likely to make up for that. Also speculation on my part, but I know vertex shaders are very beneficial to key character animation.

Also yea like jolli I'll own both, and its clear from what the devs say the ps3 version looks better, but the ps3 version has been in development longer as we know and if they have the 360 gpu configured similarly to how the rsx is then thats 20-25% of the gpu's performance gone due to them not using it like a unified shader type gpu.

The developers also make it clear they'll need to have different development cycles for future 360 and ps3 games to further exploit each console's advantages so unified shaders and the gpu's heavy vertex performance could be some of the 360 advantages. Nonetheless there is plenty of room for growth on both consoles. The cloth physics will always be a ps3 advantage I'm assuming.
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Jollipop
Jollipop
Since 5537 Days
Not really Optimus the GPU only draws what the CPU sends it. (animation is a CPU process generally, not talking about framerate here).

So if the Cell is sending better data to the RSX than the 360CPU is to the xenos there will already be a noticeable difference.

I'm not saying this is what will happen but if the PS3 has the advantage of more floating point processing as Sony claims then it will probably show in graphics later on.

Actually thinking about the PS2 and the way that was a vector processor which isn't that far removed from Cell's SPE's and the PS2 seemed to cope well enough with AI, I can't see why the SPE's won't be able to work around such limiiations either.
In reply to

I want Blue Dragon more than Optimus .... mwah ha ha ha ha ha..

Marumaro for the WIN !!

hasanahmad
hasanahmad
Since 5670 Days
theoretically PS3 has an advantage in Physics slightly
theoretically Xbox 360 has an advantage in Graphics slightly
theorertically Xbox 360 has an advantage in A.I slightly
theoritically PS3 has an advantage in animation slightly

floating point processing has no effect in graphics if there is a limit to which RSX can output shaders and textures. floating point processing only has an effect on physics, the number of objects on screen and just a bit on animation.
In reply to

Burn em' at the stake!!!

roxwell - PuS3Y
roxwell
Since 5602 Days
Only a select few will ever hit the limits on either, so does it really matter?
In reply to

Take one 360, add some chopped PS3, stir in some Wii, a sprinkling of DS Lite. Enjoy :)

The Defender of Truth and Justice!

hasanahmad
hasanahmad
Since 5670 Days
Acert can confirm this?

Multisampled Fill Rate
Xbox 360 - 16.0 Billion Samples/sec (8 ROPS x 4 Samples x 500MHz)
PS3 - 8.0 Billion Samples/sec (8 ROPS x 2 Samples x 500MHz)

Pixel Fill Rate with 4x Multisampled Anti-Aliasing (Using Tiling)
Xbox 360 - 4.0 Billion Pixels/sec (8 ROPS x 4 Samples x 500MHz / 4)
PS3 - 2.0 Billion Pixels/sec (8 ROPS x 2 Samples x 500MHz / 4)

Pixel Fill Rate without Anti-Aliasing
Xbox 360 - 4.0 Billion Pixels/sec (8 ROPS x 500MHz)
PS3 - 4.0 Billion Pixels/sec (8 ROPS x 500MHz)


Xenos - 0xMSAA > 4 Gpixel/sec
Xenos - 2xMSAA > 4 Gpixel/sec
Xenos - 4xMSAA > 4 Gpixel/sec
RSX - 0xMSAA > 4 Gpixel/sec
RSX - 2xMSAA > 4 Gpixel/sec
RSX - 4xMSAA > 2 Gpixel/sec


from another forum:
4 Gigapixels / sec is 4 billion pixels per second.

1280x720 pixel resolution is equal to 921,600 pixels. Just under a million pixels.

A game running at that resolution, at 60 frames per second means the system will have to render 921,600 pixels for every frame, so...

921,600 * 60 frames per second = 5,529,600
Just over 5.5 million pixels a second for a 720p game at 60 frames per second.

That's a tiny amount given each system can push 4 billion every second. Even if the 4 billion is theoretical, the reality is still overkill.

Modern graphics call for additional pixel processing, which eats up more of that theoretical 4 billion pixels limit.

Assuming each GPU can fully tax it's memory system with pixel rendering, bandwidth writing to the frame buffer becomes the limitation.

The RSX has a max theoretical of 20.8 GB/sec writing to video memory, and an additional 32 GB/sec writing to the system's main memory.

(last time I checked it was 32 GB/sec for main RAM unless it's changed or downgraded)

Again, assuming RSX can fully tax the memory system, it can push out up to 58.2 GB/sec worth of pixel rendering to memory. (read / write)

Xenos writes to the EDRAM for frame buffer, and it is connected to it via a 32 GB/sec connection. Due to the nature of the connection this number is very close to theoretical. At first glance it seems that RSX has more bandwidth to work with, but I also see that the EDRAM logic in Xenos has 256 GB/sec bandwidth to the EDRAM memory. Again, due to the nature of the connection, that bandwidth is very close to theoretical.

So, by dividing the 256 GB/sec by the initial 32 GB/sec we see that Xenos is able to multiply it's effective bandwidth to the frame buffer by a factor of 8 when processing pixels that make use of the EDRAM functions. This includes FP10 HDR and AA and a few other tricks.

This leads to a theoretical maximum of 32 * 8 = 256 GB/sec of rendering bandwidth to the frame buffer for the bandwidth hungry tasks that the EDRAM is designed to tackle. I must say, this is an extremely effective way to brute force eliminate the performance impact of intensive effects like HDR and AA.

The main concern here is having a rendering engine that not just uses the EDRAM as a frame buffer, but takes advantage of it's massive bandwidth by putting the logic to use.

If I confused anyone as to why 32 GB/sec gets multiplied by 8, the reason is once data travels over the 32 GB/sec bus, it can be processed 8 times by the EDRAM logic to EDRAM memory at a rate of 256 GB/sec. The end result is for every 32 GB/sec you send over, 256 GB/sec gets processed. That's where the multiplication comes in.

The end result is RSX gets a theoretical limit of 52.8 GB/sec and Xenos gets 256 GB/sec.

But it is important to note that Xenos only sees that much benefit when taking full advantage of the EDRAM by putting the bulk of the graphics engine's rendering on the effects that are accelerated by the EDRAM logic.

Unfortunately for RSX, it seem that no matter how you slice it, Xenos seems to walk all over it. Not only is RSX lacking the same bandwidth saving techniques as Xenos has, but Xenos also practically eliminates the impact of heavy bandwidth effects. So not only does Xenos have a much lower bandwidth requirement, but it also has much more bandwidth to work with.

It seems clear now why Sony has been pushing the use of CELL as a means to increase the graphical output of the PS3. It seems clear that in terms of design, the RSX is not in the same class as the Xenos GPU.

This leads to a conclusion that MS made a good choice in matching the 360 Xenon CPU with the Xenos GPU. The GPU has enough power so that it not need rely on the CPU. This follows the classic design of off loading graphics work to the GPU while allowing the CPU to handle other tasks. The multi-core nature of the 360 CPU is then most benefited by it's general purpose processing.

As a result, the PS3 seems a bit of a mismatch in terms of CPU / GPU components. The system as a whole lacks general purpose processing capability while floating point processing seems redundantly placed on both the CPU and GPU. While this means that CELL has the ability to help RSX with it's strong floating point processing, RSX is still limited by rendering bandwidth. This seems to negate any real benefits of CELL for graphics, but also means general purpose processing is mostly neglected.

In addition, we also know that the 360 CPU is also capable of graphic processing. Having 3 full cores means being able to balance the needs of game, providing flexibility where needed.
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Burn em' at the stake!!!

Optimusv2
Optimusv2
Since 5546 Days
Wow hasan who was the guy that wrote that up?
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