The XbOne Yard

Since 7578 Days

Posted by rayy

I will wait for benchmark before selling your 760s, but I understand your point.

I blame you. YOU SUCKED ME INTO THIS ;)

And of course I will wait for benchmarks. But when AMD says that the 290X will handily beat the Titan in BF4, I believe them.

They are addressing the issues I've complained about: inefficient CPU use preventing the game from using 40%+ of my SLI. It doesn't matter if my hardware is 40% faster if the game can never use that power.

So they fixed it. On AMD. It looks like my next upgrade might be a downgrade :|

In reply to

rayy

Since 7552 Days

Posted by GriftGFX

I blame you. YOU SUCKED ME INTO THIS ;)

And of course I will wait for benchmarks. But when AMD says that the 290X will handily beat the Titan in BF4, I believe them.

They are addressing the issues I've complained about: inefficient CPU use preventing the game from using 40%+ of my SLI. It doesn't matter if my hardware is 40% faster if the game can never use that power.

So they fixed it. On AMD. It looks like my next upgrade might be a downgrade :|

Yeah I know. Even though I like the idea what AMD is doing with mantle, I would have like more a solution that could work on both party, but we have to wait and see what Nvidia does and the benchmarks.

And sorry to carry you into this :P

In reply to

GriftGFX

Since 7578 Days

The only answer is to get Microsoft to make DirectX better, or to expect nvidia to either:

1) Not care because Maxwell will decimate the 290X anyway. And it will.
2) Create their own API. And we're heading down the road to fragmentation and fighting over exclusives.

Yeah. I'm not crazy about the implications. Scenario "1" seems pretty likely too. But what does that do for Fermi owners who have more GPU than the 290X but are left with worse Frostbite performance?

Nothing. And that makes me sad.

In reply to

rayy

Since 7552 Days

Posted by GriftGFX

The only answer is to get Microsoft to make DirectX better, or to expect nvidia to either:

1) Not care because Maxwell will decimate the 290X anyway. And it will.
2) Create their own API. And we're heading down the road to fragmentation and fighting over exclusives.

Yeah. I'm not crazy about the implications. Scenario "1" seems pretty likely too. But what does that do for Fermi owners who have more GPU than the 290X but are left with worse Frostbite performance?

Nothing. And that makes me sad.

Yeah it will be really sad if EA/Dice end up castrating Nvidia owners like that, but I do think mantle won't make that much of a difference on BF4 to be honest. They still pretty much need to make the game for DirectX and working well on both parties as Nvidia still, since Q2 2013, posses 62% of the market.

Edit: Sorry guys for carrying the thread soo offtopic :P

In reply to

GriftGFX

Since 7578 Days

The game already works on DirectX. The game will work much better on Mantle. I am finding very little reason to doubt it.

If Mantle made no difference it would be a huge waste of resources for everyone. Mostly DICE.

In reply to

rayy

Since 7552 Days

Posted by GriftGFX

The game already works on DirectX. The game will work much better on Mantle. I am finding very little reason to doubt it.

If Mantle made no difference it would be a huge waste of resources for everyone. Mostly DICE.

You probably right.

I hope with SteamOS developers start supporting more OpenGL instead of DirectX. OpenGL is a better solution for both parties that an API war between them that could cause heavy fragmentation.

Nvidia already have a similar API since 2011, but just never got that much support https://developer.nvidia.com/nvapi

Also Mantle is open source, so technically Nvidia could try to make it work with their cards, but still that won't benefit them in the long run as AMD will always have the advantage there.

Also Mantle won't lunch until December. I will wait there to see what it does before making any decision.

In reply to

Eddy186

Since 7523 Days

Posted by volvicstraw

Then your blind, and it's Direct Feed.

Well I'm on some prescribed drugs. :( Sorry, I meant the BF4 XB1 feed.

Posted by Optimusv2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjfyosmgoU8

BF4 XB1

I meant this.

In reply to

rayy

Since 7552 Days

Sorry for offtopic again but here is a good read of what Mantle is and what it could do http://www.anandtech.com/show/7371/understanding-a...

In reply to

hijab

Since 5370 Days

Posted by scoobs0688

Also no surprise, running at 720p. So glad i upgraded my pc although if its anything like BF3 i probably won't even like it

Wait, really ? BF4 running running 720p 60fps and medium settings on next gen consoles ?

In reply to

GrimThorne

Since 7450 Days

Posted by rayy

Sorry for offtopic again but here is a good read of what Mantle is and what it could do

Off topic? Are you kidding rayy? The Xbox One is mentioned all over that article :)

-

What’s not being said, but what becomes increasingly hinted at as we read through AMD’s material, is not just that Mantle is a low level API, but rather Mantle is the low level API. As in it’s either a direct copy or a very close derivative of the Xbox One’s low level graphics API. All of the pieces are there; AMD will tell you from the start that Mantle is designed to leverage the optimization work done for games on the next generation consoles, and furthermore Mantle can even use the Direct3D High Level Shader Language (HLSL), the high level shader language Xbox One shaders will be coded against in the first place.

Let’s be very clear here: AMD will not discuss the matter let alone confirm it, so this is speculation on our part. But it’s speculation that we believe is well grounded. Based on what we know thus far, we believe Mantle is the Xbox One’s low level API brought to the PC.

If indeed Mantle is the Xbox One’s low level API, then this changes the frame of reference for Mantle dramatically. No longer is Mantle just a new low level API for AMD GCN cards, whose success is defined by whether AMD can get developers to create games specifically for it, but Mantle becomes the bridge for porting over Xbox One games to the PC. Developers who make extensive use of the Xbox One low level API would be able to directly bring over large pieces of their rendering code to the PC and reuse it, and in doing so maintain the benefits of using that low-level code in the first place. Mantle will not (and cannot) preclude the need for developers to also do a proper port to Direct3D – after all AMD is currently the minority party in the discrete PC graphics space – but it does provide the option of keeping that low level code, when in the past that would never be an option.

In reply to

[quote=rayy]Sorry for offtopic again but here is a good read of what Mantle is and what it could do[/quote]

Off topic?  Are you kidding rayy?  The Xbox One is mentioned all over that article  :)

-

[quote]

What’s not being said, but what becomes increasingly hinted at as we read through AMD’s material, is not just that Mantle is a low level API, but rather Mantle is the low level API. As in it’s either a direct copy or a very close derivative of the Xbox One’s low level graphics API. All of the pieces are there; AMD will tell you from the start that Mantle is designed to leverage the optimization work done for games on the next generation consoles, and furthermore Mantle can even use the Direct3D High Level Shader Language (HLSL), the high level shader language Xbox One shaders will be coded against in the first place.

Let’s be very clear here: AMD will not discuss the matter let alone confirm it, so this is speculation on our part. But it’s speculation that we believe is well grounded. Based on what we know thus far, [u]we believe Mantle is the Xbox One’s low level API brought to the PC.[/u]

If indeed Mantle is the Xbox One’s low level API, then this changes the frame of reference for Mantle dramatically. No longer is Mantle just a new low level API for AMD GCN cards, whose success is defined by whether AMD can get developers to create games specifically for it, but Mantle becomes the bridge for porting over Xbox One games to the PC. Developers who make extensive use of the Xbox One low level API would be able to directly bring over large pieces of their rendering code to the PC and reuse it, and in doing so maintain the benefits of using that low-level code in the first place. Mantle will not (and cannot) preclude the need for developers to also do a proper port to Direct3D – after all AMD is currently the minority party in the discrete PC graphics space – but it does provide the option of keeping that low level code, when in the past that would never be an option.[/quote]

GriftGFX

Since 7578 Days

I think that's a bit of a stretch but it's certainly possible. That is pure speculation on Anandtech's part though. And why then are EA/DICE the only developers that even knew Mantle existed? You'd think Microsoft would be a partner there. That they would improve DirectX. That has not been the case. Mantle has not widely been seen as a very pro-Microsoft move on AMD's part.

That would boost AMD on the PC big time. But so far Frostbite/BF4 is the only thing that's known to support it, and other developers appear to have learned of Mantle on the same day as the rest of us.

Also: Alan Kurtz, aka Demize99, aka the lead developer of Battlefield 4 was very pro-Sony right out the gate. If they have been working in secret on Microsoft's API (remember, DICE helped create this), you might expect a closer relationship to surface there. I am very skeptical that there's a connection between Mantle and the Xbox One. That would be a pretty significant win for AMD on the PC if it were really true though.

I think Anand is editorializing too much. Carmack had the polar opposite response. It's a good write up though.

In reply to

I think that's a bit of a stretch but it's certainly possible. That is pure speculation on Anandtech's part though. And why then are EA/DICE the only developers that even knew Mantle existed? You'd think Microsoft would be a partner there. That they would improve DirectX. That has not been the case. Mantle has not widely been seen as a very pro-Microsoft move on AMD's part.

That would boost AMD on the PC big time. But so far Frostbite/BF4 is the only thing that's known to support it, and other developers appear to have learned of Mantle on the same day as the rest of us.

Also: Alan Kurtz, aka Demize99, aka the lead developer of Battlefield 4 was very pro-Sony right out the gate. If they have been working in secret on Microsoft's API (remember, DICE helped create this), you might expect a closer relationship to surface there. I am very skeptical that there's a connection between Mantle and the Xbox One. That would be a pretty significant win for AMD on the PC if it were really true though.

I think Anand is editorializing too much. Carmack had the polar opposite response. It's a good write up though.

GriftGFX

Since 7578 Days

On the other hand...

It will be interesting to see how Nvidia responds to this, if at all. There are a couple of scenarios that seem fairly likely. Nvidia could create their own low level API, but in the end this is an anti-consumer mess (and AMD's fault!), and would just lead to a battle over exclusive content. A battle that would ultimately make most developers just go back to a more abstract API like DirectX anyway. Because really. Who wants to develop for four or five different API's? Or.. if there is no AMD+Microsoft connection here.. Nvidia could help Microsoft improve DirectX, negating the gains from Mantle and quickly putting out that fire. That seems a bit less likely. Microsoft and Nvidia working together? Fat chance.

Or, finally.. Nvidia could just ignore it and lean on the massive performance lead they'll have early next year. Which unfortunately seems most likely since it's basically free.

I would like to see gains in DirectX personally. I feel like Microsoft needs an answer here nearly as much as Nvidia. Unless that speculation above is correct. Because the initial impression here is that this is not good for DirectX. Especially in the wake of a large Linux push from the development world.

I definitely need to see more. Not enough to make me eBay my geforces but it's definitely piqued my interest.

In reply to

[i]On the other hand...[/i]

It will be interesting to see how Nvidia responds to this, if at all. There are a couple of scenarios that seem fairly likely. Nvidia could create their own low level API, but in the end this is an anti-consumer mess (and AMD's fault!), and would just lead to a battle over exclusive content. A battle that would ultimately make most developers just go back to a more abstract API like DirectX anyway. Because really. Who wants to develop for four or five different API's? Or.. if there is no AMD+Microsoft connection here.. Nvidia could help Microsoft improve DirectX, negating the gains from Mantle and quickly putting out that fire. That seems a bit less likely. Microsoft and Nvidia working together? Fat chance.

Or, finally.. Nvidia could just ignore it and lean on the massive performance lead they'll have early next year. Which unfortunately seems most likely since it's basically free.

I would like to see gains in DirectX personally. I feel like Microsoft needs an answer here nearly as much as Nvidia. Unless that speculation above is correct. Because the initial impression here is that this is not good for DirectX. Especially in the wake of a large Linux push from the development world.

I definitely need to see more. Not enough to make me eBay my geforces but it's definitely piqued my interest.

GrimThorne

Since 7450 Days

Posted by GriftGFX

I would like to see gains in DirectX personally. I feel like Microsoft needs an answer here nearly as much as Nvidia. Unless that speculation above is correct. Because the initial impression here is that this is not good for DirectX. Especially in the wake of a large Linux push from the development world.

I definitely need to see more. Not enough to make me eBay my geforces but it's definitely piqued my interest.

I know what you mean, for the first time in nearly 18 months I'm ready to upgrade. What's really encouraging is that I could go with a pair of 290s, get my ASUS ultra-wide and still come way under what I was expecting to have to spend for a major upgrade. How the hell is AMD able to sell the 290 for only $599? It's almost unbelievable.

In reply to

GriftGFX

Since 7578 Days

I'm not sure if you're serious. The 290X is probably considerably weaker than the GTX780 in raw power. The only reason it will win in Battlefield 4 is because of Mantle.

For reference: they are only claiming a 3DMark FireStorm score of 8000 for the R290X. GTX 760 SLI will get you over 9000 for $500. It's not really that miraculous of a price point. This entire generation of Radeons would get entirely overlooked if it weren't for their software effort. Maxwell is going to launch early next year and will likely double Nvidia's current performance.

The Geforce is still going to be better at DX11. For a long time. I wouldn't buy into the hype just yet unless all you care about is Battlefield and you game beyond 1080p/60hz.

I have more of a reason to be interested :D But I hate that it would be a downgrade.

For DX11 @ 1080p/60hz a GTX 760 is still a pretty good recommendation. I'd wait to see if Mantle turns out to be a big deal. Or wait for Maxwell.

In reply to

Optimusv2

Since 7470 Days

Curious about Mantle? @anandtech's article is an excellent summary of our newly introduced technology: http://www.anandtech.com/show/7371/understanding-a...

https://twitter.com/AMDRadeon/status/3833497574285...

AMD endorsing Anandtech's article? Or maybe they didn't see the Xbox One speculation.

In reply to

Halo Reach using 360 tesselation unit extensively.

Hironobu Sakaguchi is coming back to reclaim the throne :)

Seeing it in motion on your HDTV, will blow your mind!!

Don't ask any questions just shut up and buy Halo : Ghosts of the Onyx one of th

GriftGFX

Since 7578 Days

It is an excellent summary. Don't jump to conclusions.

There's a lot of conclusion jumping re:Mantle.

In reply to

Optimusv2

Since 7470 Days

It's exciting as hell though in any case. Our GPUs (well our AMD GPUs for now anyway) and processors may well see levels of performance exploitation in ways we had become accustomed to not even expecting on the PC. This is surely going to lead to an even more aggressive DirectX improvement schedule on many levels.

Collectively you've got

Mantle
SteamOS & SteamMachines
Powerful Programmable Audio DSPs on GPUs (Quality sound finally receiving serious consumer focus again like the old Creative Labs days)
Linux getting a major shot in the arm towards more widespread and mainstream use and acceptance.

All this makes for an amazing looking pc gaming landscape that literally did not exist about a week or so ago. I can only imagine what a potential Half Life 3 Steam OS announcement could do, which I honestly see happening within 2 to 3 years time now, likely even as soon as next year depending on how aggressive Valve is feeling.

In reply to

Halo Reach using 360 tesselation unit extensively.

Hironobu Sakaguchi is coming back to reclaim the throne :)

Seeing it in motion on your HDTV, will blow your mind!!

Don't ask any questions just shut up and buy Halo : Ghosts of the Onyx one of th

GriftGFX

Since 7578 Days

It's not all unicorns and rainbows. We could be heading down a path towards fragmentation, among other things.

And let's see how Microsoft and Nvidia responds. One possibility is that Nvidia won't bother, because Maxwell's Direct X performance is going to eclipse the R9 considerably. And they're already buddying up with Valve and commiting to Linux.

Or.. they do.. and we have a messy battle over exclusive content for multiple sets of vendor specific, more difficult to develop for API's. Which will be horrible for consumers and developers and just drive everyone back towards DX anyway.

We also don't know what platforms Mantle will support. SteamOS? Linux? EA is a partner. Think about that.

There's a lot of putting the cart before the somethingorother.

In reply to

BLackHawkodst

Since 6464 Days

Posted by volvicstraw

More jrpg's????

Entertainment and services sound all well and good, but the only thing that will really speak to Japanese consumers are games targeted towards their specific tastes. Is Microsoft ready to address those needs? "Actually, we'd like to work in tandem with Japanese developers to produce exclusive Xbox One titles for the Japan market," said Spencer.

"I think we'll be announcing these titles once the Xbox One release date draws closer. Blue Dragon and Lost Odyssey on the Xbox 360 were wonderful experiences, and I'm looking forward to forming partnerships with new developers for this system as well. I feel it's going well, that we'll be able to respond to the 'love' Japan games fans have for Xbox One."

Missed that, well here's to hoping it's true.

In reply to

Prepare To Drop!!

rayy

Since 7552 Days

Posted by GrimThorne

Off topic? Are you kidding rayy? The Xbox One is mentioned all over that article :)

Lol I know they mention Xbox One on the article, but is to be expected that both Xone and PS4 work with a low level API like that. I won't even been surprise if AMD also have Mantle working on both consoles as well as both use the same GCN architecture. This have been like this on consoles since long time a go. Anandtech are just using the Xbox One as an example on what a low level API can do, so I don't see this been on topic or any news about the Xone.

And as Grift say this isn't any good news for Microsoft. I'm sure they don't like the idea of low lvl APIs working on Linux (SteamOS) with much better performance than their own DirectX on Windows.

In reply to

docLEXfisti

Since 7696 Days

Forza 60fps video

http://www.gamefront.com/files/service/thankyou?id...

In reply to

the only tyrant I accept is my inner voice [and my two kids ;)]

ultimate gamers threat: "Watch it, or I'll spoil you all!"

Jin187

Since 7322 Days

Posted by docLEXfisti

Forza 60fps video

http://www.gamefront.com/files/service/thankyou?id...

Loving the new lighting engine, really stands out on that track. The audio is sublime as usual, they just need to add more AA as it's looking a little fuzzy. Easily my most anticipated game of the next generation.

In reply to

GriftGFX

Since 7578 Days

Fairly well made Forza 4 versus Forza 5 comparison: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPAQa6Scbdc

In reply to

docLEXfisti

Since 7696 Days

Watchdogs also only 30fps on NextGen consoles - games's creative director doesn't even know whether it'll be 720p or 1080p

http://uk.gamespot.com/news/watch-dogs-runs-at-30f...

In reply to

the only tyrant I accept is my inner voice [and my two kids ;)]

ultimate gamers threat: "Watch it, or I'll spoil you all!"

GrimThorne

Since 7450 Days

Posted by rayy

And as Grift say this isn't any good news for Microsoft. I'm sure they don't like the idea of low lvl APIs working on Linux (SteamOS) with much better performance than their own DirectX on Windows.

It could be an editorial stretch like Grift suggested, but I think there's been a misunderstanding with this article. Anad isn't saying this is a competing API, they're saying THIS IS Xbox One's low level API. They believe Mantle's origins are with the Xbox One because it uses the Direct3D HLSL that Xbox One shaders will be coded against. Practically a direct quote.

Look at it this way. If they're correct then Mantle is the Xbox One's API with a cross platform bridge for GCN architecture. We have to wait and see.

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