I agree w/ everything you said and I have bitched about weapons in Killzone 2 before myself. I just feel that on top of all that, the poor gameplay mechanics (the weight excuse is such bullshit) I find equally frustrating, or at least a close second. It's not AS bad in single player, but for MP purposes it REALLY drags down the potential for frantic action. Everything from the classes, weapons, game types, to map designs is geared towards a most fast paced action MP, yet the controls totally hurt that pattern.

I'm not saying it needs to be another CoD clone, but if it even felt more like Bad Company 2 or TF2 (which it takes so much influence from anyhow) it would be SO much more fun to play. I guess i just get really frustrated b/c I see the potential.

Like you said, they have the tech down, GG just aren't good at making the actual game.

it's an entirely subjective thing tho on both counts (controls and weapon managment). whether you think the weight argument is bullshit or not doesnt change tha fact a LOT of people enjoyed it. if it was as broken as you are both making out then it surely wouldnt have received the critical acclaim that it did? afterall, no matter how amazing a game looks, if it's fudemental design is broken it isnt going to do well critically. but killzone did both. looked great, did well.

now dont get me wrong, i completely understand why some dont like the way it controls, afterall, this gen seems to be ruled by those who demand every FPS to look and feel like Call of Crap (see what i did there) but i dont. and majority of killzone 2 players dont either, there is a reason we love it afterall. killzone isnt the noob-fest that call of duty is, and that is in part, thanks to the controls. it feels different, uniquely killzone.

i dont want killzone 3 to feel different, i like its sense of weight, it isnt a floaty "camera attatched to a gun" twitch shooter like call of duty is. and it shouldnt need to be. sure call of duty did some great things for online FPS's, and there is no denying its popularity. but i dont want every game to play like it, hell, i'm sick of COD as it is. wheras you guys, despite whether you want to admit or or not, DO.

i thought simon, "mr defend resident evil 5 for having backwards controls becasue he didnt want it to play like gears of war" would have understood this, but i guess we all have double standards when it comes to stuff we like/disslike....myself included.

Korn, nobody said we want Killzone to feel/play like CoD, and it's becoming very clear you are using this bullshit "noob fest" argument no matter what just to defend a game for something we are NOT asking of it.

Do we want Killzone 3 to be a noob fest? no. do we want it to play/feel like CoD? no, we never said that. But none of the other major shooters CoD, Halo, TF2, Crysis, etc... have had nearly as many gripes about the way a game plays or feels.

Is it subjective? of course it is. But there is no way anyone with an honest opinion can deny that Killzone 2 had an abnormally large amount of detractors in terms of core game issues like weapons and controls.

That's fine if you are an uber fan of the game and think it's super-duper awesome, but don't attack us simply b/c we think, like a HUGE amount of other people, that the game has serious issues that need to be addressed before it can be at the same level as all the other major AAA shooters. I remember you, not so long ago, griping about how you get pissed when people attack you for making "valid" criticisms of a game...

The controls were better in the beta... i'd be content if they fixed em' and made em more like that. Aside from the AWESOME multiplayer it will undoubtedly have, I'm really pumped for the new SP campaign. I for one LOVED the singleplayer in kz2, and I think part of that had to do with the awesome enemy AI and the satisfaction of killing them :)

Combat not changed ?

Nothing to see here people move along..

*Stays*

Ah, sweet. Sounds promising.Oh. Pass.

I played it again a few hours ago for like 2 hours...turned it off.

You dont even have to aim down the scope, just hip fire in minimum bursts and you are might kill...if you pump enough bullets in them...or get a clean headshot.
I would say scope isnt needed unless they are incredibly far away, enough to need it, but then it would be very hard to hit them.

Now I dont know if its me or not, but when playing the game it looks like its very "slow" and sluggish, like if its the framerate gets slow to 25 or something, especially when you turn around.

I also hate the fragfest/grenadelauncher/RPGs that comes up in pretty much all levels. Even if I am not even close to the grenade it makes the screen shake alot as if there was a powerful earthquake or something and makes me unfocused and the next thing you know your stuck to get back considering your team is behind you trying to swarm in and get a kill.

In Bloodgratch level (multiplayer trailer), first 5 seconds I was in the game, I got a grenade below my feet...and I barely escaped the respawn terrority which also means, spawn killing because of the small maps and short distance combat.
Only good level IMO is the Salamun Market.

Bigger and more balanced maps, remove some of the shitty classes like assault class and saboteur, fix the controls (it might work in SP because of the AI isnt fast and quick like a human, but in MP it is needed) and amp up the framerate.

Oh and the delay kills, fix it.

The more I think of it, the more I realize that Killzone 3 will be pretty much the same unless they change these. And considering I went back to KZ2 just to see how it was like I remembered why I left, because of those things and I am 95% sure they are going to do the samething with KZ3, just a gutfeeling I got...if so, I wont buy it, as much as I love everything except the controls and some of the technical and design issues on the MP.

This time, I will definitely try and not get persuaded by their trailers and all, as much as they seem to be nice looking.

Going to trade my KZ2 copy in, not going to be worth much, but still.

http://uk.ps3.ign.com/articles/109/1092173p1.html

it sounds SAHWEEEEEET!

nice to see it incorporating battlefields "HD sound" one of the few things i like about battlefield tbh.

NEED to see this in motion now. it's gonna blow minds.

True.

any mention of coop?

Just because I say Killzone 3 might be the same doesnt mean a bad thing though, to the fans.
But I personally think they will overhaul a change for sure, but we will see.

There are rumors about 2 player and 4 player objective co-op in works, but then again it was posted by a guy with a "secret source" so rumors are rumors, got to wait and see.

in the IGN article they mention the controls are better... so take that for what its worth.

I called GAME, its worth 50SEK LOL, no way I am trading it in.
I guess I am going to be hyped when Killzone 3 media shows up, knowing myself, I know I want to play Killzone 2 then LOL.

Going to train myself for the controller.

Also, this news is a few days old, however, Killzone 2(Joris de Man composer of Killzone series) won the best soundtrack in a Ivor Novello Award.

Now I got the gamerip from Killzone 1 and 2 and Killzone 2 is absolutely badass to listen to and that is what I listen to when I play the MP mode :)
I hope they keep custom music for Killzone 3 MP.

the soundtrack is pretty amazing in KZ2, very overlooked.

Yep!

Killzone 3 will definitely have epic music as well.

There is actually a sound clip of the Killzone 3 conferense online that was posted in NeoGAF, you could hear the game running in the background and the music was playing, usual Killzone music so its all good :)

Killzone 3 has no "gratuitous" swearing news
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/killzone-3-has-n...

Hmm, I didnt mind stuff like shit and damn but the rest was meh tbh, too much and too forced...like Rico LOL

BTW, one thing I seriously hope they fix is the height of the gun seriously.
In KZ2 it feels like the guns is strapped to your hip and not up near the head, that or you are a midget.
Hopefully they can fix the height of the gun this time.

i always saw it as the gun being at the character hip. since you dont run around with the gun pressed up against your face.

eitherway, i just want the camera to be wherever makes the guns looks as sexy as they did the first time around.

I saw it that way as well, but when you aim down the sight then it doesnt make any sense.

No, the height of the gun has to go higher. You dont play as Scarface were your gun is on the hip and you just spray, with or with no scope.

The the height of the gun was a very annoying mistake GG made that made you look like a midget, if it's "from the hip" then the character's head is only about 8 inches above his waist line lol.

Also Sath, your comment about the delayed deaths in MP made me remember how annoying that was, I was always waste a good amount of ammo on someone I had already killed but the delay would always confuse the situation.

Anyhow, if IGN says the controls are better I hope to god it's not the same person who gave KZ2 such a good review, b/c anyone who thought KZ2 had good controls is someone who sure as fuck has different taste than me and a shit ton of other shooter fans.

By no means do we need a noob-fest game, but the imput delay and lack of consistency in the recoil of the guns is nothing but annoying imo. I know there are a lot of ppl who are big enough graphics whores that they over-look the game's many flaws to enjoy the atmosphere, but I personally prefer good gameplay over good presentation, even if the presentation is a fantastic as Killzone's.

the gunplay works ok for SP due to the slow and predictable AI killzone has, but for MP they really need something that works better if they ever want to get anything even close to the level of "system seller" other AAA shooters manage to be.

No doubt 3 will look spectacular though, i'm really interested in seeing the new enviornments they come up with. I can see snow looking really great w/ their beast of an engine. Something more green and organic would be really interesting to see as well.

I'd also love to see some co-op this time, no big budget shooter should be w/out co-op this day and age.

I just want to say that the delay shot kills doesnt seem to be there anymore, not from what I played, which was like 1-2 hours (was going to watch 24 then) and it didnt have any delay.

About the controls, as I said, the FPS in the game is slow and that makes the game seem like its slow on purpose, which I doubt.
When I play in some of the maps and I move and turn around it seriously feels like the FPS is barely making it 30.

The weighty feel is OKAY by me for sure, but thats only in SP, in MP its...not working for me. Sure, the enemy have the same controls as you and if you are dying more than you kill then it means YOU are not playing it right or have the right sensitivity adjustments.
But still, I dont prefer it.

According to a hands-on the controls seems to be more responsive, I think its less clunky and all, but that doesnt mean the weighty feel is not there.

About the height of the guns, yes, it truly feels like you are a midget, when you get close to another character model you are in the same height of their chest or waist.

I have no problem getting more kills than deaths, I don't find the controls hard to use like some, I just don't find them FUN to use. It just feels too "bouncy" to me. This is why I don't get the "weight" argument, as I would think the high gravity would make it harder to have the gun bounce all over so much.

I also think I'm so hard on the game just b/c I saw so many things that I did like in Killzone 2 that it seemed like such a shame that the base foundation of the game was so flawed, as the presentation and MP maps etc all had some really great ideas. But the flaws always kept the game from becoming something I could really get into, even though I did play the game enough to max out all the classes.

I really do hope they greatly increase the weapon choices though, such a small variety of weapons is really gonna kill long term interest for me.

I agree, the movement is alot bouncy and shakey and its a bit, annoying. But so is Bad Company games though.

I can say this that sometimes the gunplay works perfectly, like yesterday I had streaks of 6 kills and it feelt great especially the sound of "ding" when you kill someone, very satistfying.

Its a mixed bag really, some will love it some will hate it, I for one am mixed about it. Sometimes it works good and sometimes its just crap and I want to turn it off.

- Framerate has to be faster, it feels like its really slow when you turn around. (no it has nothing to do with the sensitivity).
- Height of the gun must go higher up, thats too low.
- MP levels has to change, more open and more paths. Right now, in most levels, if one team overthrows the other that team will use explosives, some people just dies right after a respawn and cant get further than their own zone. I LOVE Salamun Market, perfect level of big but not huge.
- Assault and Saboteur class HAS TO GO! Worst classes in this game.
- More assault design models (but keep the defaults as well).
- When using the Tactician class respawn grenade, for the love of god, do not turn my back AGAINST the enemy...I have died so many times during me going confused which side I respawned at.
- Make hip fire more shakey but make the aim scope more steady, not the other way around.

Those are the issues that annoys me in Killzone 2 MP, more or less. Sometimes they do sometimes they dont, pretty much a "wtf moments".
Like I said, its a mixed bag, sometimes it works and I have no problem, but sometimes it just annoys me.

But in general I do LIKE Killzone 2 MP its fun for sure, but sometimes these type of issues happens and then I start to dislike it.

From what I read is that GG said Killzone 3 will be 10x bigger in maps than what Killzone 2 had, I hope they use such things in multiplayer as well.

This is Salamun Market http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HktS5gfEEyk
If you like at the video, most of the kills are from the hip.

I am still playing Killzone 2 now and then and I do really like it, but sometimes its just "eh".

They really need to remove the bullshit shakey camera.
There is no explosions near me and my screen shakes crazy as hell when there are sounds of explosions which makes my crosshair and gun move out of balance, got me killed many times.

They also really need to speed up the framerate!
I dont think its the weighty feel that makes it slow its the framerate, its seems like its barely holding 30fps.
I think there is TOO MUCH visuals effects on a level that makes it slow.

One more thing, they need to reduce the damage on the assault rifles a bit, it takes quite alot of shots to kill someone unless its a headshot. Sometimes I am shooting all my clip into someone and half of the bullets hits and they are still standing, I mean WTF is up with that.
Sometimes I get a clear 2-5 nice headshots and they are still standing, doesnt make any sense. And no, no delay kills either *sigh*

Sath, you do you usually use the ISA rifle or the Helgast rifle? I find that the Helgast AR feels less "bouncy" and I think there is more accuracy when aiming down the iron sights, not sure if it's to make up for the lack of scope or what, but I always find it to work better than the ISA AR, even if the ISA one does look soooo much nicer lol.

I put in the game today and I have to say, after playing so much Bad Company 2, I'm surprised how much less annoying the controls felt than I remembered. Sure, the controls are still not satisfying and do kill the fun to some degree, but it's not as bad as I had it built up in my head. Like you said, sometimes things occur that make you wanna smash your gamepad but other times you get into the "groove" of using the overly noob-friendly hip fire stuff and really get on a roll. I'll agree they really did a piss poor job of making it way too easy to use hip fire and they didn't make using the scope/iron sights nearly rewarding enough in terms of increasing accuracy. Sometimes even when far away I shoot from the hip and feel like my chances are about equal. I really hope GG fixes this as it's a huge shame to the balance and flow of the action during battle.

If they nix the assault class I'll be happy, saboteur is annoying but not overly game breaking IMO.

I'm am really stoked to hear they are using much bigger maps as I'd love to see more maps like Salamun Market.

But again, after playing a couple hours today I do have more hope for killzone 3 than I had before. The gameplay is far from great, but it's also not so broken that you can't have fun playing the game, especially once you get used to the overly bouncy feel of the game.