The XbOne Yard

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En réponse à

Inscrit depuis 6213 Jours

A true shocker, who could have possibly seen that coming? And that .gif is absolutely incredible whoever made it is quite good

So now we know there isnt a second GPU.. but they didnt say anything about A THIRD GPU! tGPU's in XB1 confirmed via my sources

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Currently playing: Counterstrike:GO, Skyrim, WoW:MoP, SC2

GrimThorne

Inscrit depuis 7450 Jours

Posté par GriftGFX

So that's that...

You would think. The thing is he did what he was supposed to do, but now he won't let it go. And he's chosen to make a stand at Gaf over it. He might as well be arguing with a toilet bowl.

-

Oh, I'm sure I'm going to regret this.

Let me ask on the AMA. I think the team wanted to do something different. The people I'm talking about will be getting out there to give details.

I do want to point out, this original discussion started with me saying, "Games on both systems look great. Look at Forza, Rise, Dead Rising, etc. All next-gen, on par or better than anything out there. We believe this 50% number is overstated"

Then people said, "that's subjective, we want proof"

So I explain that we have people on the team who are very experienced optimizing tools and development for graphics (DirectX, etc.) because we are a SW company, and that we have balance in the system in other places that equalize the playing field.

Then it's said that was all hokum, you're just spinning, we want math and more detail to prove what you're saying.

So at THIS point - I go talk to someone. "Hey, you helped design our system. You're a sr. technical leader at Microsoft. You're sitting with 3rd party developers right now who are working on both systems. Can you give me some points to help explain why nobody is seeing this rumored 50% delta"

Then I publish the points, so now I have GAF telling me a developer working on our system is wrong, and that I should just let the games speak for themselves.

Which is where I started. And since my attempts to provide more direct lines of information aren't considered truthful, because I'm not the source.. then I agree we are back where we started.

I will ask two questions of the detractors, honest questions.

1. What piece of information would you want that I could provide that would convince you there is not a huge delta in performance?
2. If it comes out after we launch that the difference between 3rd party games is maybe single-digit FPS between the two platforms, will I get an apology or concession?

and some more-

At Microsoft, we have a position called a "Technical Fellow" These are engineers across disciplines at Microsoft that are basically at the highest stage of technical knowledge. There are very few across the company, so it's a rare and respected position.

We are lucky to have a small handful working on Xbox.

I've spent several hours over the last few weeks with the Technical Fellow working on our graphics engines. He was also one of the guys that worked most closely with the silicon team developing the actual architecture of our machine, and knows how and why it works better than anyone.

So while I appreciate the technical acumen of folks on this board - you should know that every single thing I posted, I reviewed with him for accuracy. I wanted to make sure I was stating things factually, and accurately.

So if you're saying you can't add bandwidth - you can. If you want to dispute that ESRAM has simultaneous read/write cycles - it does.

I know this forum demands accuracy, which is why I fact checked my points with a guy who helped design the machine.

This is the same guy, by the way, that jumps on a plane when developers want more detail and hands-on review of code and how to extract the maximum performance from our box. He has heard first-hand from developers exactly how our boxes compare, which has only proven our belief that they are nearly the same in real-world situations. If he wasn't coming back smiling, I certainly wouldn't be so bullish dismissing these claims.

I'm going to take his word (we just spoke this AM, so his data is about as fresh as possible) versus statements by developers speaking anonymously, and also potentially from several months ago before we had stable drivers and development environments.

En réponse à

[quote=GriftGFX]

So that's that...[/quote]

You would think.  The thing is he did what he was supposed to do, but now he won't let it go.  And he's chosen to make a stand at Gaf over it.   He might as well be arguing with a toilet bowl.

-

[quote]

Oh, I'm sure I'm going to regret this.

Let me ask on the AMA. I think the team wanted to do something different. The people I'm talking about will be getting out there to give details.

I do want to point out, this original discussion started with me saying, "Games on both systems look great. Look at Forza, Rise, Dead Rising, etc. All next-gen, on par or better than anything out there. We believe this 50% number is overstated"

Then people said, "that's subjective, we want proof"

So I explain that we have people on the team who are very experienced optimizing tools and development for graphics (DirectX, etc.) because we are a SW company, and that we have balance in the system in other places that equalize the playing field.

Then it's said that was all hokum, you're just spinning, we want math and more detail to prove what you're saying.

So at THIS point - I go talk to someone. "Hey, you helped design our system. You're a sr. technical leader at Microsoft. You're sitting with 3rd party developers right now who are working on both systems. Can you give me some points to help explain why nobody is seeing this rumored 50% delta"

Then I publish the points, so now I have GAF telling me a developer working on our system is wrong, and that I should just let the games speak for themselves.

Which is where I started. And since my attempts to provide more direct lines of information aren't considered truthful, because I'm not the source.. then I agree we are back where we started.

I will ask two questions of the detractors, honest questions.

1. What piece of information would you want that I could provide that would convince you there is not a huge delta in performance?
 2. If it comes out after we launch that the difference between 3rd party games is maybe single-digit FPS between the two platforms, will I get an apology or concession?[/quote]

and some more-

[quote]

At Microsoft, we have a position called a "Technical Fellow" These are engineers across disciplines at Microsoft that are basically at the highest stage of technical knowledge. There are very few across the company, so it's a rare and respected position.

We are lucky to have a small handful working on Xbox.

I've spent several hours over the last few weeks with the Technical Fellow working on our graphics engines. He was also one of the guys that worked most closely with the silicon team developing the actual architecture of our machine, and knows how and why it works better than anyone.

So while I appreciate the technical acumen of folks on this board - you should know that every single thing I posted, I reviewed with him for accuracy. I wanted to make sure I was stating things factually, and accurately.

So if you're saying you can't add bandwidth - you can. If you want to dispute that ESRAM has simultaneous read/write cycles - it does.

I know this forum demands accuracy, which is why I fact checked my points with a guy who helped design the machine.

This is the same guy, by the way, that jumps on a plane when developers want more detail and hands-on review of code and how to extract the maximum performance from our box. He has heard first-hand from developers exactly how our boxes compare, which has only proven our belief that they are nearly the same in real-world situations. If he wasn't coming back smiling, I certainly wouldn't be so bullish dismissing these claims.

I'm going to take his word (we just spoke this AM, so his data is about as fresh as possible) versus statements by developers speaking anonymously, and also potentially from several months ago before we had stable drivers and development environments.[/quote]

Phaethon360

Inscrit depuis 7424 Jours

He's just making it even worse...

"A GUY I WORK WITH WHO WE PAY SAYS WE'RE GOOD SO LISTEN TO US WHEN WE SAY WE'RE GOOD, GUYS"

I don't know what genius decided to let every MS employee have a GAF account. GAF is one of the top headline makers in the world. Anything and everything you say is going to be posted on a hundred news sites, and they felt they should do this in a setting they have zero control over?

Whenever they need to shut up and stay quiet they do the exact opposite. Microsoft is a runaway train right now, in every semblance of the word.

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GrimThorne

Inscrit depuis 7450 Jours

Posté par Phaethon360

He's just making it even worse...

"A GUY I WORK WITH WHO WE PAY SAYS WE'RE GOOD SO LISTEN TO US WHEN WE SAY WE'RE GOOD, GUYS"

I don't know what genius decided to let every MS employee have a GAF account. GAF is one of the top headline makers in the world. Anything and everything you say is going to be posted on a hundred news sites, and they felt they should do this in a setting they have zero control over?

Whenever they need to shut up and stay quiet they do the exact opposite.

It's too late. It's already taken on the tone of Denis Dyack -Too Human vs Gaf...............and sinking fast.

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GriftGFX

Inscrit depuis 7578 Jours

That doesn't mean they're not still making it worse. Time to bail out.

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Phaethon360

Inscrit depuis 7424 Jours

They need to handle it like they handled the Xbox 360's gap compared to the PS3. The PS3 was more powerful but very hard to optimize which created a big gap in 3rd party visuals.

I honestly only remember Sony writing checks their ass couldn't cash leading up to last gen, and I'm sure it's what's helped them avoid making bigger mistakes this time around.

But Microsoft has misgauged so much coming into this that they feel the need to address every issue loudly and publicly. Their credibility is in short supply surrounding the Xbox One, and they need to actually let the games speak for themselves like the Xbox 360 did.

Let gamers make up their own minds when they get some games.

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Eddy186

Inscrit depuis 7524 Jours

From the sounds of it who would ever go to gaf! sounds like there is no reasoning on there, whatsoever.

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GrimThorne

Inscrit depuis 7450 Jours

Posté par Phaethon360

But Microsoft has misgauged so much coming into this that they feel the need to address every issue loudly and publicly. Their credibility is in short supply surrounding the Xbox One, and they need to actually let the games speak for themselves like the Xbox 360 did.

When you read Penello's posts you almost get the impression that they [Microsoft] are all just now starting to figure out that performance and tech would be important. He shouldn't be selling us on their engineers, sell us on the hardware you built. Sell us on your games. Truthfully there's nothing wrong with having something to prove to gamers. We win if Microsoft really feels that have to go out of their way to prove that they have the better machine.

The burden of proof is entirely upon them. It's simple......PROVE IT.

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scoobs0688

Inscrit depuis 6213 Jours

I think Dennis Dyack learned the hard way that you never fight Neogaf and come away unscathed. If that dude really works for MSFT then he should just shut up now.

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add me on steam: scoobs18@gmail.com
add me on PSN: scoobs0688

Currently playing: Counterstrike:GO, Skyrim, WoW:MoP, SC2

BLackHawkodst

Inscrit depuis 6464 Jours

I don't know why he feel's he has to say what is already widley known, the multiplat games will look very similar with some minor differences here and there just like last gen, we know this.

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Prepare To Drop!!

Phaethon360

Inscrit depuis 7424 Jours

Posté par Eddy186

From the sounds of it who would ever go to gaf! sounds like there is no reasoning on there, whatsoever.

There's reasoning. It's just when you've pissed them off for months and then you're the highest ranked person they've met and you evade basic questions they'll eat you alive.

Point is they aren't questions he should know, or even attempt to answer. But if he's going to say "the specs sheets don't tell the whole story" and make bold claims, he needs proof, and lots of it. The only difference between a bold claim and lie is proof, and there's none that corroborates his story.

His only source is someone on his payroll underneath him. Not good enough when devs close but outside MS are singing another tune. And of course, the specs sheets. The risk of joining just multiplied the chances of another Jeff Bell incident.

They can't show any strength when all they're going to do is shout "Hey guys we aren't weak ya know, trust me." Until there's proof it's just a waste of time.

En réponse à

[quote=Eddy186]From the sounds of it who would ever go to gaf! sounds like there is no reasoning on there, whatsoever.[/quote]

There's reasoning. It's just when you've pissed them off for months and then you're the highest ranked person they've met and you evade basic questions they'll eat you alive.

Point is they aren't questions he should know, or even attempt to answer. But if he's going to say "the specs sheets don't tell the whole story" and make bold claims, he needs proof, and lots of it. The only difference between a bold claim and lie is proof, and there's none that corroborates his story.

His only source is someone on his payroll underneath him. Not good enough when devs close but outside MS are singing another tune. And of course, the specs sheets. The risk of joining just multiplied the chances of another Jeff Bell incident.

They can't show any strength when all they're going to do is shout "Hey guys we aren't weak ya know, trust me." Until there's proof it's just a waste of time.

gow_fan

Inscrit depuis 5935 Jours

It is, in a way good they actually come to gaming forums. But seriously is it really Albert or some other guy on his behave posting there ? Either way they should not post on internet forums or should hide their identity. I think may be because of so much negative things surrounding XO. Some one decide to reassure that XO is just as good if not better than PS4.

What will be really crazy if someone from Sony too come and do this to and fro which is better and gets involved in immature internet battle on forums or twitter. I think both sides should just relax and have internet warriors battle it out. lol.

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gym4life

Inscrit depuis 6103 Jours

He should just let the games do the talking as they always speak the loudest.

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Sath

Inscrit depuis 7444 Jours

Posté par Phaethon360

Hahahahaha so good.

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Frozpot

Inscrit depuis 7336 Jours

OR maybe he's close to the project, cares about it, and thinks it's not getting a fair shake? Just a thought. Did he ever say the X1 was more powerful than the PS4? I didn't see that- he's saying don't write off the X1 in comparison because they have specialized architecture that should close the gap. I think he says that for PR and because he genuinely believes it.

They are being much more mature than Sony has been recently, tbh. Every time they have to talk about Sony, they mention that they have a good machine. Meanwhile Sony reps, while having the dominant position, take pot shots. But whatever, I think the games ARE speaking for themselves- at least from a technical point of view. Of course we haven't seen the X1 Multi-plat games yet, and that should give us a better Idea of how far off he is...

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Oooh, Profound, isn't it?

scoobs0688

Inscrit depuis 6213 Jours

Posté par gow_fan

It is, in a way good they actually come to gaming forums. But seriously is it really Albert or some other guy on his behave posting there ? Either way they should not post on internet forums or should hide their identity. I think may be because of so much negative things surrounding XO. Some one decide to reassure that XO is just as good if not better than PS4.

What will be really crazy if someone from Sony too come and do this to and fro which is better and gets involved in immature internet battle on forums or twitter. I think both sides should just relax and have internet warriors battle it out. lol.

Sony isn't that dumb, i can't believe actual microsoft employees are taking to neoGAF to argue w/ those trolls... what a terrible PR move.

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add me on steam: scoobs18@gmail.com
add me on PSN: scoobs0688

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GrimThorne

Inscrit depuis 7450 Jours

Posté par Phaethon360

There's reasoning. It's just when you've pissed them off for months and then you're the highest ranked person they've met and you evade basic questions they'll eat you alive.

I think he can be trusted, he's been a straight shooter since the very beginning. He's never taken a fly on something that wasn't later proven or backed up so I have assume that he wouldn't tell us something that he doesn't believe himself. Not to mention he's put his own credibility on the line with all of this, so gamers are actually going to be looking to see how Microsoft will prove that they built the better performing machine, if they don't.............they'll never hear the end of it.

Penello would have been fine but strayed from the topic. His big mistake was going in there and trying to convince people that the PS4's 18 CUs don't matter. He had to know those were fighting words to those people over there, that they would defend the PS4's design against any claims of "inefficiency" For those who don't know, this is a not so subtle dig at Killzone Shadow where it was revealed that GG was only using 14CUs for the game. That's a very very sore subject to those people over there, they've even cannibalized EACH OTHER other over that issue.

Another issue with that is that it's sounds like Microsoft is conceding paper specs and trying to take some kind of moral high ground for doing so. It's like saying, "We know we built our console conservatively but we've got the best software engineers in the world. Oh and Sony's 18CUs don't really matter because their inefficient" That's not going to work.

Posté par BLackHawkodst

I don't know why he feel's he has to say what is already widley known, the multiplat games will look very similar with some minor differences here and there just like last gen, we know this.

Then why go into Gaf to make that point? Why do you think Sony never sends any of their own reps into Gaf? They enjoy the support they receive from them but they really don't want anything to do with them at all because they're rabid and they know it.

En réponse à

[quote=Phaethon360]

There's reasoning. It's just when you've pissed them off for months and then you're the highest ranked person they've met and you evade basic questions they'll eat you alive.[/quote]

I think he can be trusted, he's been a straight shooter since the very beginning.   He's never taken a fly on something that wasn't later proven or backed up so I have assume that he wouldn't tell us something that he doesn't believe himself.   Not to mention he's put his own credibility on the line with all of this, so gamers are actually going to be looking to see how Microsoft will prove that they built the better performing machine,  if they don't.............they'll never hear the end of it.

Penello would have been fine but strayed from the topic.   His big mistake was going in there and trying to convince people that the PS4's 18 CUs don't matter.  He had to know those were fighting words to those people over there, that they would defend the PS4's design against any claims of "inefficiency"  For those who don't know, this is a not so subtle dig at Killzone Shadow where it was revealed that GG was only using 14CUs for the game.  That's a very very sore subject to those people over there, they've even cannibalized EACH OTHER other over that issue.

Another issue with that is that it's sounds like Microsoft is conceding paper specs and trying to take some kind of moral high ground for doing so.   It's like saying,  [b]"We know we built our console conservatively but we've got the best software engineers in the world.  Oh and Sony's 18CUs don't really matter because their inefficient"[/b]   That's not going to work.

[quote=BLackHawkodst]I don't know why he feel's he has to say what is already widley known, the multiplat games will look very similar with some minor differences here and there just like last gen, we know this.[/quote]

Then why go into Gaf to make that point?   Why do you think Sony never sends any of their own reps into Gaf?  They enjoy the support they receive from them but they really don't want anything to do with them at all because they're rabid and they know it.

Phaethon360

Inscrit depuis 7424 Jours

That's not a trait that's exclusive to GAF by a longshot. It's a forum. You have people who have hated the Xbox since it came out, people that loved it until recently, and people that just like to see a famous person talking. But enough of one type and they will make it difficult for you, and it's the most public gaming forum for showcasing your failings.

Sony and Nintendo don't have official reps because they don't need them. Microsoft didn't either, but they're going to learn the hard way. You don't get too close or take things so personal in business. MS figureheads have made that mistake a few times with Jeff Bell on GAF and Don Mattrick in interviews.

Penello can't be seen as being objective if he works for Microsoft so anything he says that detracts from Sony's claims looks like a ploy. And it is. He and Major Nelson were told to make GAF accounts. And it was a bad PR move for Penello, he's too high up. Major is the glorified community manager so no one expects him to say anything objective, just nothing too crazy.

En réponse à

That's not a trait that's exclusive to GAF by a longshot. It's a forum. You have people who have hated the Xbox since it came out, people that loved it until recently, and people that just like to see a famous person talking. But enough of one type and they will make it difficult for you, and it's the most public gaming forum for showcasing your failings.

Sony and Nintendo don't have official reps because they don't need them. Microsoft didn't either, but they're going to learn the hard way. You don't get too close or take things so personal in business. MS figureheads have made that mistake a few times with Jeff Bell on GAF and Don Mattrick in interviews.

Penello can't be seen as being objective if he works for Microsoft so anything he says that detracts from Sony's claims looks like a ploy. And it is. He and Major Nelson were told to make GAF accounts. And it was a bad PR move for Penello, he's too high up. Major is the glorified community manager so no one expects him to say anything objective, just nothing too crazy.

Frozpot

Inscrit depuis 7336 Jours

I for some reason would trust Penello over Major Nelson, lol. Nelson just feels like blatant PR. I just can't wait for the release of the machines so the games are in our hands. Of course it won't stop PS fanboys from jawing on an on about power, regardless of the end product, like they did with the PS3.

Until all this new tech-talk, I never really considered how much the architecture could affect performance. Makes sense. Pretty interesting stuff.

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Oooh, Profound, isn't it?

Phaethon360

Inscrit depuis 7424 Jours

Yeah but Major is blatant PR. He knows that, and he knows we know that, so he's not going to say something about the PS4, only about his product. Penello shouldn't talk about the insides of other people's houses. He's not a PR guy, and MS forcing him to become one is not working out. All I'm sayin.

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KORNdog

Inscrit depuis 6982 Jours

Posté par Frozpot

Of course it won't stop PS fanboys from jawing on an on about power

You mean like how Xbox fans do with the countless multiplatform titles that look or perform better on the 360? It's only natural I guess, and that was with far more similarly spec'd consoles. On paper this looks like a much bigger gap, and people like to buy the better version of a game where they can. There's a reason I own more multiplat titles on 360 then I do PS3. If you intend to be a multi console owner next gen, the xbone will be relegated to an exclusive only player.

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alimokrane

Inscrit depuis 7508 Jours

lalala lalala lalolalala..... lalala lalala lalolalala..... lalala lalala lalolalala.....

/runs.

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Frozpot

Inscrit depuis 7336 Jours

Posté par KORNdog

You mean like how Xbox fans do with the countless multiplatform titles that look or perform better on the 360? It's only natural I guess, and that was with far more similarly spec'd consoles. On paper this looks like a much bigger gap, and people like to buy the better version of a game where they can. There's a reason I own more multiplat titles on 360 then I do PS3. If you intend to be a multi console owner next gen, the xbone will be relegated to an exclusive only player.

I still see that admittedly lame exclamation because the Sony 'boys wouldn't shut up on how much more POWER the PS3 had. How it smashed the 360 and how amaaazing the cell was. It was calling the BS- that's how I saw it.

The same crap is happening now. I do think it's nuts when you get some fanboys saying the X1 is secretly more powerful, too. I believe MS' assertion that the gap isn't what it looks like is probable given what we've seen from the games so far though...

En réponse à

Oooh, Profound, isn't it?

GriftGFX

Inscrit depuis 7578 Jours

It was calling the BS- that's how I saw it.

Double standards ftw...

I think he says that for PR and because he genuinely believes it.

Like Microsoft is going to say anything else. Acert hit the nail on the head. Approaching this issue at all is stupid and feels like damage control.

They should shut up and let the software speak. If the software is going to say what they are implying it will.

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Deer & Boy

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