Well, there's some truth to that, but I think 343, even without Bungie's involvement, have showcased with Halo 4 that they can make a truly incredible game and that they are an incredibly talented developer, certainly deserving of being considered one of the strongest first party teams Microsoft has ever had. I look at the way the Halo 4 campaign was handled, the spectacle of it all, the art direction, the subtle and very skillful nods to some of Marty's work and how they tied it together with the overall scene, and I see precisely the kind of dev team that I had always envisioned Microsoft would never have. 343 strikes me as the kind of development team you would expect Sony or Nintendo to have in their back pocket.

If you also consider the amount of pressure that had to be on them, following in Bungie's footsteps with the Halo franchise, what they did is even more impressive. Even if one doesn't believe Halo 4 to be perfect, or you think that it fell short in some instances, the game's campaign was something else and it got a lot of things right, particularly in the story and character development department. It was a very exciting and well crafted experience, beginning to end. It's fair if people have disagreements about how good or bad it does certain things, because even the best of movies, for example, have their critics. However, that said, it was certainly a AAA effort worthy of a first class developer, even if it wasn't exactly everybody's cup of tea. Even the developer themselves said it wasn't perfect, but it's certainly something they can and should be proud of. If that's what their first effort is like, I'm beyond excited at what a second effort might look like. They possibly handled all that pressure about as well as you could hope for any team to manage. Almost nothing they did was guaranteed to please everybody, because people will always wonder how Bungie might have done things differently, or if Bungie would have made this or that decision, and I certainly respect that.

With regards to PGR, I have less of an attachment to that franchise, but it's one I do look forward to for the simple fact that I expect it to be one of the Xbox platform's strongest titles. I understand the skepticism when a new developer steps in, but if the game delivers, then I don't so much worry about who made it. Still, if it helps any, supposedly some key veterans of the PGR team seem to be onboard for the project, so I guess it's not entirely a new set of people. I felt Frankie, from a campaign perspective, kept Halo being Halo and protected the characters and the universe, hopefully the new PGR team does a similar thing. I think Bizarre owns the kudos system, though, so there might not be that system in there, or it may be marketed as something else.

So true. Prove us wrong Rare.

Hehe, that's true, you can polish anything if you spend enough on it, but there's some legitimate talent onboard 343. Not exactly a few grunts thrown together. That said, I felt they gave me the kind of Halo game that you only read about in the books, the Master Chief character that you read about in the books. The Chief, to me, was portrayed as the kind of legendary hero that he is, but I liked that this didn't mean people were kissing his ass, either. He wasn't just some dude in a piece of armor, he was well beyond that. He was the next stage of human evolution reaching towards a greatness that a new and very dangerous enemy fears and is trying to prevent at all costs, but you know there's something even more dangerous on the way. As much as the game tells us, it left just as many, if not more, questions.

For the things that I feel Halo 4 nailed, it will probably always be a game I look at very positively. With that said, they thought their initial challenge was hard? It won't be easy for them to top Halo 4 in my eyes. They better have a damn good plan for the remainder of the trilogy, because I don't think even they can appreciate just how high their first game has risen expectations for the follow-up. Because I loved it as much as I did, I see Halo 4 as a very hard game to top for 343, as far as the campaign and story is concerned, which is why although I'll be extremely excited the moment I start hearing info about the new game, I'll be judging the next Halo game far more harshly than I ever have before because I now know what they are capable of, and anything less than that I'll frown upon. I'm half going into the next Halo title with much lowered expectations simply because I feel Halo 4 gave me practically everything I wanted from a Halo campaign, and I understand the chances of that happening again are rather slim.

Literally all the crazy crap I speculated about, with the exception of one, all happened in the game's campaign. Know how rare that is? :PI echo that. I so want Rare to prove people wrong this upcoming gen. I want them to show us some signs that a small bit of past greatness still exists. Unfortunately, I think they may lack the ability to do that without Nintendo at the helm. I hope I'm proven wrong.

http://kotaku.com/5982986/we-know-all-about-the-ne...

They say they got info on the new Xbox from the same guy that was selling the dev kits.I like that, since we knew they were going to include Kinect anyway, they might as well go ahead and make it mandatory to ensure that all new xbox owners have the same experience with the peripheral.Might as well, since every console comes with one. It makes no sense to make it a choice, just make it mandatory and get it over with. Devs who want to bother with it for games, will, and the ones that don't can ignore it.This last bit is awesome, that means no slow blu ray disc read speeds. Everything will be 100% hard drive at all times on Durango Titles. That's pretty huge, I like it.That quick game switching seems fairly cool. The suspend feature sounds similar to Windows 8's app suspension feature, where it's somehow no longer dominating system resources once you switch away from it. Doubt I'll be suspending many games, though, as what's the point. I guess that depends on how it actually works?

The mandatory kinect intergration has pretty much killed any chance of me picking this up, unless it has some seriously AWESOME exclusives to counteract it. It was obvious as hell kinect and the casual market would be their focus after the success of the kinect V1. But i never expected it to be a non optional element that makes the console non functional without it. Does this mean we now have a secondary peice of hardware that could fail, and require replacement to keep using the console? The fact it's this always on, spying thing that recognises users and players seems to marry up with previous rumours suggest a good chunk of the 360's power will be consumed by the OS and kinect...

Sorry, i just see negatives with this approach assuming it's true. And i thought kinect 2.0 would add a little more then just 5 additional bone recognition points? I was expecting fingers?

This is like the worst bombshell ever.

Don't see the point of having multiple games running at once, again, just seems like wasted resources. Who played 3 games at once or is so pressed for time they have to switch between them instantly?

Aside from the jump in visuals comparrison of halo 2 to crysis on a decent PC, i genuinely PRAY all of that is just a load of made up BS. Because it all just sounds BS.

I don't have an issue with mandatory Kinect for every console. It's mandatory for the console, not mandatory for every single game designed for the machine. That is an important distinction. Kinect is most likely going to be used as a high end peripheral that Microsoft wants to be an integral part of the end user experience that people have with the new xbox. I don't see a problem with that. If you want to ensure something's success, or guarantee it catches on, you can't half ass it.

It isn't like they are suddenly ditching a normal controller and forcing every game to use Kinect. Microsoft can't force developers to make Kinect titles. They could if they did what Nintendo did with the Wii, where the only means of controlling the system to start out with was a wii mote, but that isn't what Microsoft is doing, now is it?

It also obviously doesn't sound like they are selling Kinect separately, everybody is going to have one, because it's likely going to be packed into every console. So, this isn't a case where some folks will have a choice to buy a new xbox without Kinect, and if you don't buy that separate peripheral at a separate cost, it means you're screwed, but I anticipate people who don't read anything at all reacting that way regardless. I'm just not seeing how the inclusion of a peripheral device, something that has been common in consoles for the longest time, is suddenly now a reason NOT to get a console.

Korndog, can you use your Xbox 360 or PS3 without plugging it into an electrical outlet, or without connecting it to a television or monitor of some kind? That's more or less the same exact concept that Microsoft is adopting with Kinect. It isn't a must for your games, simply a must for the basic operation of your console. That's like someone trying to use their ps2 or original xbox without the controller. But Kinect isn't the primary means by which you will game on your new xbox, the controller is! :D

That really isn't something you can say for certain.

And your right, this is a reason not to get the console for me. Because it is a foced element i never asked for that is required for even basic functionality of the main console. I don't like anything that locks you out of something like that. Especially one that fucking spys on you. Its like needing a webcam to access your PC. Fuck that. Stupid idea.

MS doesn't exactly have the most glowing record when it comes to reliability either. To add an additional high risk peice of hardware that is a requirement just seems stupid. Packed in or not, i don't want to use it, why is it forcing me to?

so already i don't want the console itself, but good games could sway me, i'll just plug the kinect in, but hide it in a box or cupboard, assuming it isn't integral to usability, like UI navigation or something retarded...and also assuming they're not just the usual 3 games MS like to knock out every year?

This sounds awesome!I guess the Kinect thing we already knew about so no surprise there (except the mandatory calibration crap), but just like the ps4 that will come bundled with the pseye the 720 will come bundle with kinect. Only difference is with the ps4 i will be able to throw the pseye away as soon as i open the box but with the 720 i will have to calibrate then hopefully throw it away lol.

Anyone give me a high level overview of what this will mean for games?

http://www.vgleaks.com/durango-display-planes/

Also thats a pretty massive graphical leap.

I can guarantee that Kinect won't be the primary mode for gaming on the new xbox. Do you have any idea how silly that is? What makes me further confident is that I know current developers who are making games for the new Xbox with zero Kinect gameplay functionality. Their games are being designed for the traditional controller, but they have their user interface guys making some sort of cool side app to go along with their game, like digital game manuals and such that can be called up from within and even outside the game via Kinect voice commands or certain hand gestures. Kinect, on the whole, will be seen as mostly a added value component of the new xbox. Will some games use it? Sure, they probably will, but it won't be something that devs are forced to do.

And this part I have no clear confirmation on, but is speculation based on a conversation I had with a developer. I think developers will also be able to use a minor amount of OS specific resources to tie in extra functionality from their games, so that if they do decide to use some of these non-gaming Kinect specific extras on their games, it won't be coming from the memory or resource pool strictly dedicated to games, and some of the reported space reservation that Microsoft made for the system OS is also partly for developers to make use of as well, just not for actual gameplay related purposes, but for add on apps/features that are tied to the games they've made, or even to upcoming games that they have in the pipeline.

Umm, how exactly is a damn camera device for a console a high risk piece of hardware? That's like saying someone's web cam is a high risk piece of hardware for their computer, or the camera on their cell phone is a high risk piece of hardware. Is current Kinect a high risk piece of hardware? No, it isn't. Holy shit, now the new xbox is spying on you, too? Don't let misunderstood patents lead you to believe silly conspiracy theories. Do you have any idea the world of shit Microsoft would be in if a new Xbox was ACTUALLY spying on people, to the point that their privacy or personal safety could be compromised? Because that's what 'spying' on someone can undoubtedly lead to. So none of the camera related stuff that sony is doing is of any concern whatsoever, but Microsoft is spying on us now!? I don't think you realize the seriousness of what you're referring to, particularly if you're alluding to the rumor where supposedly third party interests can spy on people. You also have to keep in mind that the marketing on both sides is in overdrive, and don't for a second believe that doesn't also include misinformation.

You probably saw that on neogaf, but I wonder if the people there parroting the nonsense even know the person who brought it up currently works for a marketing division of Sony? I bet they do, but you can't let questionable objectives get in the way of a good smear on the competition. :)

By spying i simply mean constantly aware, constantly "looking". It will undoubtably be the sole method of signing into an account. If it is to do that fast and reliably, it would have to always be on. Hence, spying. I don't like it. I don't even like my PSeye being on. But at least with that i can unplug it, throw it in a draw and not have my entire console stop working because of some moronic decision to ram motion gaming down our throats.

And yes, the kinect is high risk hardware, it's hardware made by MS, it is high risk by default.

I need some original IPs, or a return to some long forgotten ones, see MS take some risks in regards to games, game ideas, and genres. Otherwise i aint toiching this kinectbox with a 10 foot pole. You're the king spinner, so by all means stay excited, but this "kinect or bust" plan of attack for MS isn't going to work for me. Just like the "XBL GOLD or bust" stopped working years ago. Trapping you in a corner isn't my idea of of a good strategy.

Well obvoiusly its all rumors but just like you, i'm going by the rumors until we get confirmation from MS themselves.

Some really cool stuff there if true?, the kinect thing sounds silly but no biggie, its all about the games for me.

The most basic use is hardware handled support for different parts of the game being at different resolutions and frame rates.

UI/HUD and Menus in games can be 1080p, while the game itself could be running in 720p.

The different planes can not only be at different resolutions, but they can also be at different frame rates, too.

The game could be running at 720p 60fps, whereas the UI could be running at 1080p 30fps, or the game could be running at 1080p 60fps while the UI is running at 1080p 30fps, or 720p 30fps.

The gist of it is that the xbox ui, the ingame ui, and the actual game you're playing could, simultaneously, all be running at different resolutions and frame rates without the player being aware. I believe this was done already, or is already possible, but the difference this time around is that there is special purpose hardware dedicated to it all. Essentially, I think another way to look at it is that all three of these planes, because they have dedicated hardware, wouldn't be fighting over resources quite as much, which probably means you end up saving on resources that might have otherwise been more shared in order to pull up certain OS features. Essentially, this might make the new xbox appear very powerful doing all sorts of various kinds of multi-tasking, but because of this dedicated hardware, the performance will likely be smooth as butter.

A more advanced use, I think, is that different parts of a videogame can be very cleverly rendered at different resolutions to further save on resources, probably allowing you to dedicate more to a specific part of game in a very dynamic, constantly changing way depending on what's happening in the game. It isn't unreasonable that a game as you're playing it could be dynamically changing resolutions multiple times without you ever even realizing that it's happening. With this, I think a game's foreground could be 720p 60ps, but the background way in the distance, is maybe at a much lower resolution. I think games might already do this already, but this GPU seems to have specific hardware tasked with this purpose?

I believe there is a patent that suggests they can also be used to send pictures/video to 3 separate screens, where they are then optimized for those screens. In other words, I imagine it means someone could be watching tv on the screen your xbox is connected to, but you will still be able to continue playing your game on your computer screen/tablet etc. Pretty much matching that wii functionality, but probably going one step further.


Plane #2 is for the xbox UI and OS overlays.
Plane #0 and #1 could be used for either the game foreground and the UI, or in reversed order, the game UI and the game foreground.

A pretty hamfisted explanation, but I think all these things are possible. In fact, it sounds like it could allow for a developer, as far as what the player sees on screen, to far more easily design a videogame's end picture result in specific pieces that are dynamically managed by hardware. Maybe when a huge explosion takes place here, they will cleverly use this hardware to drop the resolution on one of the planes, thus freeing up more power, which will then allow them to toss in some extra visual effects to make it look that much more impressive, but because they dropped the resolution without anybody knowing, the performance didn't seem to dip any, and then once that explosion or scene is done with, they can dynamically raise the resolution yet again. That's my take on it all. This entire console seems to be pretty cleverly put together. It seems like they could be used to give a developer even more control over the development process than they've had before.

I guess, example, game is running at 1080p 30fps, explosion happens, but that explosion is on a separate hardware plane that is actually 720p at 60fps, and while the explosion is happening, the main game resolution is maybe quickly lowered to 720p or something slightly less than 1080p, and then the freed up power from the resolution drop is used to improve the visual effects that are dedicated to the explosion to both make it look faster and more impressive looking, and then when the explosion is over and done with, the main game resolution jumps back up 1080p. I believe these display planes can be utilized in this kind of manner. I'm getting excited just thinking about, really.

I know it all sounds crazy, but I'm essentially piggybacking what I've seen some programmers game devs say about it on beyond3d already. They seem to think this is all possible. Of course, they had a pretty good idea of what the display planes did well before this leak, so they had already tossed around all the dynamic resolution ideas that I'm suggesting now, just perhaps not the game specific detail that I've gone into, but I think it's possible.

If dynamic resolution switching during midgame can be utilized effectively enough, it might be a pretty big deal. Yea, I don't expect it to overcome the ps4 gpu, I already fully expect the ps4 gpu to have clear advantages. I just think the xbox gpu is designed with a specific goal in mind, and with that goal in mind, the apparent deficiencies compared to the PS4 GPU, may not be the end of the world for the new system is how I see it. I mean, it's a safe bet at this point that the ps4 would have the advantage with the specs as we have them, but I'm not looking at them in that context, because if I did, it would be an incredibly limiting conversation. Instead, I tend to look at both consoles with the fact in mind that devs, regardless of which is stronger, will simply code to the specific needs and capabilities of each console. If that means the ps4 version has an extra bell and whistle, then that's fine, so long as the game looks and runs great on the xbox as well. It will, as usual, be the first parties that really showcases the differences between the two platforms.

Haha, I pray this doesn't mean precisely what you said. Crisp huds and blurry games, haha. I think they will be able to manage that effectively enough, however. Still, if this hardware display planes thing is as versatile for programmers as some say it is, then there is no end to the possibilities of how this could help game optimization. This is something that would normally, if they wanted to do it, be done by the programmers entirely through software. However, if Microsoft has this kind of stuff already worked out in the development environment where they feel devs can immediately begin taking advantage of the work they done to look into it's potential implementation, which they likely did, then we could see some crazy stuff.

I also agree, that illusion of power when doing all these various multi-tasking things could really catch a few eyes if it looks good enough. That, funny enough, just might be the "sauce" lol.

ok i kinda have a better understanding now, thanks.

i cant wait to see the next alan wake or mass effect..

It's not a silly assumption this time, Grift, because the new xbox will NEVER, and I mean, never, be as hard to develop for as the Playstation 3 was. For example, the PS4 may be the simpler platform to develop for right now, but that doesn't mean devs will have anywhere close to as much trouble with the new xbox as they did with the PS3. Devs are already firmly familiar with the EDRAM/ESRAM setup, as a similar thing was done on the 360. And, unlike the case for the PS3, the Xbox doesn't have to worry about an extremely complicated Cell Processor to code for that presents all sorts of issues.

The new xbox's 8GB of memory is also in one unified pool, regardless of the fact that the PS4's memory setup is MORE unified, and doesn't need to worry about some extra ESRAM elsehwere. However, devs are already well accustomed to the setup used by the new xbox, because they encountered something strikingly similar already on the Xbox 360. What I'm describing happened so rarely on the PS3, because the PS3 was just so much more complex. The ps3 is significantly more complex to develop for than the new Xbox. Sony simply made the PS4 even simpler to develop for this time around. I'm not saying any of this should make Durango sound like a beast, it does make it sound particularly exciting as far as optimization tricks to squeeze the most power and the best end product out of it is concerned, however.

Most gamers go nuts over a range of third party titles, and that won't be changing this coming gen, and clearly Microsoft's current and existing first party efforts this gen (which I do admit have to get much better) haven't prevented them from handily beating our outselling the PS3 and Wii in the USA. First parties are important, very important, but I suspect that they may be more important in swaying opinions amongst us hardcore, but not necessarily the greater collection of gamers out there, who, as far as they're concerned, think COD is the greatest videogame ever made, and Madden and fifa stomps all first party games lol.

And, right you are, I'm clearly no authority on the subject, as I just read what those guys say, or what my development friends tell me and try to basically go from there as best I can. However, quite a few devs have already pointed out that the PS3 had significantly more things working against it for multiplatform development than the new Xbox will. More challenge to develop on than PS4? Yep, but not much different from the current Xbox 360. In fact, I think the general consensus is that, in speicifc ways, it will be easier on the new xbox, because the ESRAM isn't as limited as the 360's EDRAM was, and they'll be getting much better processors this time around that aren't in order execution.

True, good point, I don't see those folks as somehow less gamers than the rest of us, but I do think most of those people don't care nearly as much about the things that we more hardcore individuals tend to care about or talk about.

True, their first party was indeed a lot more interesting earlier in the generation (Blue Dragon, Lost Odyssey :p), but they seemingly had a new life thrust into the platform with the release of Kinect, and the first party situation hadn't in anyway drastically changed for the better. The 360, with a far worse first party situation, went from consistently beating the PS3 in the USA, but consistently losing to the Wii, to systematically crushing both month after month. At that point in the gen, you'd think the renewed interest in an Xbox can no longer be credited with their earlier in the gen first party efforts, nor the head start they got on Sony.

With the increase in their brand recognition this time around, they'll have much less need for the head start. It was a must coming into this gen, not so much in the next.

The average gamer likely doesn't know that the Xbox 360 had, on average, the more superior 3rd party titles. And the primary reason why that advantage was so prominent in some cases this gen, is because the PS3 was so much more difficult to develop for, problems on a level the new Xbox will not even remotely have to deal with, even if Sony did make a system that should be even more easy to develop for this time around. Developers are intimately knowledgeable on dealing with the new Xbox's ESRAM, same as they did with the EDRAM on the 360, only the ESRAM will be capable in a way developers greatly desired, so the ESRAM, in a sense, actually represents Microsoft giving developers what they wanted. I can say with firsthand knowledge that a major developer asked Microsoft for that ESRAM, and they got it. Sure, there may be challenges with the move engines, but not to nearly the same degree as the PS3.


The new Xbox has a unified 8GB of DDR3, the PS4's setup just happens to be even more unified, but what the new xbox will be doing with memory isn't a totally drastic departure from what was done with the Xbox 360, although there are some very important differences, but not enough to complicate development to PS3 levels of complex. Also, these two consoles will share remarkably similar GPUs, as well as close to identical CPUs. These are things that simply couldn't be said for the 360 and PS3, which were drastically different machines. Multiplatform development may be a lot easier on these two machines than was the case for the 360 and ps3.

And while I won't disagree that the PS4 gpu has more power, I think the fact that the xbox gpu seems geared towards a very different way of looking at dealing with textures, a method heavily favored by the likes of John Carmack and Tim Sweeney, I think it becomes more difficult to ascertain how the power differences may appear in real world games, if the game development approaches turn out being as significant as seems implied. However, if both consoles are doing the same things the exact same way, then, yes, clear advantage to PS4, no questions asked.

It will be so interesting when we get a look at the games themselves.Fixed :) Also, practically nobody is talking about the 3 sticks of weapons grade uranium that will be powering the new Xbox's processor.